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Thread: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Just as abortion stats are difficult to quantify because various states require various reporting, reliable stats on pregnancies that result from rape are difficult to find. However, according to the LA Times:

    "Because pregnancy is believed to occur with about the same frequency whether a woman was raped or engaged in consensual sex – about 5% of the time – the wildly different estimates in occurrences of rape have produced wildly varying estimates of the number of pregnancies that result."

    Statistics on rape and pregnancy are complicated - Los Angeles Times

    From the Wall Street Journal:

    "The biggest discrepancy is in the estimates used for the number of rapes in the U.S. These can vary in official government estimates from as few as 64,000 a year to as many as 1.3 million, about 20 times larger, depending on when and how rapes are counted.

    ...The Federal Bureau of Investigation counted 84,767 forcible rapes—as distinct from statutory rapes without force—in 2010, based on crime reports from local law-enforcement agencies. The Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey, based on polling Americans, counted 188,380 rapes and sexual assaults that year. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, conducting its own victimization survey, counted 1.3 million rapes in 2010.

    Survey design and question wording also matter. A study published in 2000 by the Department of Justice compared two surveys conducted in 1997 among women attending college. The surveys were identical, except that one was modeled on Justice's crime victimization survey while the other asked much more detailed questions to screen for rape. The latter survey estimated a percentage of women who had been raped that was 11 times higher than the one modeled on Justice's survey."

    In addition to conflict between the CDC's and Justice's reporting, "The other unknown number is the probability that a rape will lead to pregnancy. There are no fully reliable, up-to-date data on such relevant factors as the age of victims, the rate of their hormonal contraceptive use and what percentage of rapists ejaculate in their victims, researchers say." Pregnancies From Rape Prove Tough to Count - WSJ.com

    Important to note that the Kilpatrick referenced is the author of the 1996 study frequently cited: Rape-related pregnancy: estimates and de... [Am J Obstet Gynecol. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI

    First, it is CRITICAL to note that the claims of prolife about rape-pregnancies is BASED UPON ABORTION BEING LEGAL. Since they want abortions made illegal, their claim of rape-pregnancies is pointless OTHER THAN THEY WANT LOTS MORE OF THEM.

    Second, few women will claim her pregnancy was by rape. In fact, if she is carrying the pregnancy to full term she would be a ROTTEN mother if she did decided to put that label on the child for that child's whole life - and a fool to put that label on herself. You only have to look at messages posted on this forum by many men on sexual assault to understand why. Plus doing so would add the horrific legal risks of the rapist claiming parental rights and visitation - meaning the rapist is in her life for decades.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I have yet to see any prolife MAN on this forum that does not eventually declare it's all the woman's fault and men (ie yourself) have no blame or responsibility whatsoever.

    Actually, by your message, EVERY pregnancy is like the Virgin Mary. Other than God maybe, there is no one "responsible" but her.

    Girls and women forced to be pregnant is not rare at all, but then you claim that's irrelevant anyway since only the female was involved.
    I'll say it one more time and that's all - I can't make you understand the meaning of words, but I can provide them for you again in the hope you may actually read them, understand them, and comprehend the message.

    As stated previously, if, as most pro-choice people believe - as I believe, because I'm pro-choice - that women control their own bodies, what goes in and what comes out, then except for the exceptions where a woman is raped or she is still an under aged child, etc., you have to accept that no woman gets pregnant unless she allows herself to get pregnant. If she's not forced to have unprotected sex, she makes a choice - there's that choice thingy again - a choice to engage in an activity that has the potential to leave her pregnant. She makes that choice - or, if you'd prefer, she takes that gamble and sometimes she wins, sometimes she loses.

    I defy you or any other pro-abortion advocate to provide us with proven statistics that indicate that the majority of abortions conducted in the US today, some 1.2 million per year, are as a result of a woman or young girl being forced into sex where pregnancy resulted. If you can't prove it, then you're just blowing nonsense. Absent any proof to the contrary, I stand by my comment that "in the vast majority of cases, when a woman gets pregnant she has no one else to blame but herself".
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The truth is, you've been avoiding the pro-choice sides most well-defended argument (the constitutional lack of recognizing the personhood of the ZEF) with the avoidance-laden "Someday a change is gonna come!"

    Your laughable pro-choice "best argument", or at least your particular rather feeble attempt at presenting it, was absolutely destroyed early on, long ago lain to rest. That you cannot assimilate this, that you keep resurrecting its memory from the deep grave it was buried is nothing if not pure folly... combined with a bit of an awkward obliviousness to your own surroundings, bordering on the embarrassing.

    Really, you should allow this poor excuse for an actual argument to rest in peace.

    I would advise as law enforcement usually does when there is a bad accident where nobody survived, please move on, there is nothing more you can do here.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post

    I defy you or any other pro-abortion advocate to provide us with proven statistics that indicate that the majority of abortions conducted in the US today, some 1.2 million per year, are as a result of a woman or young girl being forced into sex where pregnancy resulted. If you can't prove it, then you're just blowing nonsense. Absent any proof to the contrary, I stand by my comment that "in the vast majority of cases, when a woman gets pregnant she has no one else to blame but herself".
    What an absurd proof-demand. What a BLANTANT shift you make too. You demand proof that the majority of pregnancies ending in abortion are against a woman's will - and then assert (and shift) to your claim of "the vast majority of cases" as your assertion.

    It's YOUR claim. PROVE YOUR claim that "the vast majority of cases" of abortion were by fully consentual sex and/or without contraceptives.

    And you are just digging in that the man is not to blame at all, only the woman. Yes, of course you do. You're a man.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Besides, there are about 1.2 million abortions in the US every year. This number does not include pregnancies that may have been ended medicinally. 20,000 to 35,000, in the big scheme of things, is a statistical irrelevancy to the number of abortions.
    Then, would you agree that the less than 1% of abortions that are late term are irrelevant to the abortion debate?



    It's good to hear however, that you consider a man dying of a disease to be the equivalent of a woman becoming pregnant even if it's as a result of being raped.
    Boy, did you ever miss his point!

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Though estimates vary (which is the nature of estimates), tens of thousands of pregnancies are caused by rape every year.

    The immoral abortion banners want to punish these woman for being "temptresses"
    That is nothing but just plain old fashioned TRASH talking... many among our ranks are women themselves, we all have mothers, many have sisters, daughters, female cousins and female friends... being protectors of life when you pro abortion folks apparently have given very little thought to the mass murder of absolutely the most vulnerable and the most innocent.

    If balanced on the scales of justice, realizing that rape is abundantly heinous, the scales will tip away from your side to ours as murder is far worse than most rapes, as bad indeed as rape certainly is. This straw man of the punishing of women as "temptresses" is beyond ludicrous.

    Does the concept of continuing credibility ever even come into the periphery of your view? Just wondering.
    Last edited by Gaugingcatenate; 05-28-13 at 05:43 PM.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I'll say it one more time and that's all - I can't make you understand the meaning of words, but I can provide them for you again in the hope you may actually read them, understand them, and comprehend the message.

    As stated previously, if, as most pro-choice people believe - as I believe, because I'm pro-choice - that women control their own bodies, what goes in and what comes out, then except for the exceptions where a woman is raped or she is still an under aged child, etc., you have to accept that no woman gets pregnant unless she allows herself to get pregnant. If she's not forced to have unprotected sex, she makes a choice - there's that choice thingy again - a choice to engage in an activity that has the potential to leave her pregnant. She makes that choice - or, if you'd prefer, she takes that gamble and sometimes she wins, sometimes she loses.

    I defy you or any other pro-abortion advocate to provide us with proven statistics that indicate that the majority of abortions conducted in the US today, some 1.2 million per year, are as a result of a woman or young girl being forced into sex where pregnancy resulted. If you can't prove it, then you're just blowing nonsense. Absent any proof to the contrary, I stand by my comment that "in the vast majority of cases, when a woman gets pregnant she has no one else to blame but herself".
    At least 46% of unplanned pregnancies are the direct consequence of not taking birth control or not taking it properly. Contraceptive Use Among U.S. Women Having Abortions in 2000-2001

    A woman having sex must take responsibility for herself, including being responsible for her birth control. I'm pretty tired of the ongoing little motif about how pro-life men are misogynists who blame the woman. A woman IS responsible for practicing birth control.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I have yet to see any prolife MAN on this forum that does not eventually declare it's all the woman's fault and men (ie yourself) have no blame or responsibility whatsoever.

    Actually, by your message, EVERY pregnancy is like the Virgin Mary. Other than God maybe, there is no one "responsible" but her.

    Girls and women forced to be pregnant is not rare at all, but then you claim that's irrelevant anyway since only the female was involved.
    We have crossed swords on this issue before and you made these same and/or similar statements about pro life men [ seems you have a penchant for considering us the lowest of low... just because we actually believe in the sanctity of life?] and have asked you to prove these wild assertions of yours... never saw anything resulting from that.

    ... plus you indicated, if I remember correctly, that pro life men chased all the pro life women away with their views, which I also asked you to prove...nothing resulted from that, either. That you would assert your ostensibly wrong opinions in this regard without any substantive basis is offensive to those of us wanting to protect life but who also very much enjoy the company of the women in our lives and very much want to help protect them from the real low-lifes that exist out there.

    At the same time, when do pro abortion women ever take responsibility for creating a life, a life they have no right to take away? How often is it seen that pro abortion women, in 99% of the cases wherein they consensually agree to an act that is intended to lead to pregnancy [ that is its main purpose, to promote the survival of the species ], take the responsibility for that action, along with their partner? And how many women are willing, if indeed the responsibility is to be equal, to give men just as much right to make the ultimate decision to choose life... or do you believe that its solely the woman's choice? Because that is the common liberal meme, woman's choice...what about all the equality? What about man's choice? What about partner's choice...together... and how about the baby's choice? I mean your way is having it both ways, this woman's choice only and women never having to take actual responsibility for her own actions.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    At least 46% of unplanned pregnancies are the direct consequence of not taking birth control or not taking it properly. Contraceptive Use Among U.S. Women Having Abortions in 2000-2001

    A woman having sex must take responsibility for herself, including being responsible for her birth control. I'm pretty tired of the ongoing little motif about how pro-life men are misogynists who blame the woman. A woman IS responsible for practicing birth control.
    Those stats are over 10 years old.
    Unplanned pregnancies among teens and women in their 20s have been dramatically reduced in the last several years recent studies show.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    About 5 percent of girls/women who are raped become pregnant.
    But when it happens to a loved one I do not care what the percentages are.
    That is not the question I asked....Could you answer that one please?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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