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Thread: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    Again: her body. The problem is that we keep making the mistake of saying it's "his baby" while it's growing inside her womb.
    Why is it a mistake to say it's "his baby" while it's growing inside her womb? Unless, of course, there is a question of paternity, I don't see the issue.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Fla. Man Accused of Killing Ex-Girlfriend's Fetus - ABC News

    Ex-girlfriend was six weeks, five days pregnant, by her ex-boyfriend. Ex-boyfriend didn't want to have a child, ex-girlfriend did.

    Ex-boyfriend tricked her into taking a pill that caused her to go into labor and lose the "baby".

    He is now charged with first-degree murder.

    Doesn't the crime of murder require a "person" to be killed? Doesn't abortion law tell us that a fetus that is six weeks, five days old is not a person?

    Shouldn't the pro-choice, pro-abortion crowd be outraged that this charge was laid and what is the impact going forward if he is convicted of first-degree murder?
    Yes, this is inconsistent. If we define the fetus as a part of the woman's body, and not as a person, then this cannot be murder. It is a kind of assault or bodily harm. At most it can be 'mayhem.'
    But it is definitely inconsistent to call it murder.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Certainly, and I have no problem with this as an assault case. Drugging anyone destructively is an assault. However, I do see a contradiction IF - as I believe - the man has as much liabilities after birth as the woman has. In short, this case makes me uncomfortable from both directions.

    Yet such contradictions aren't rare. My wife is more pro-actively pro-choice than anyone I know, yet she had given the hospital and her doctor a statement - sworn and notarized - that if they had to make the choice between her life or that of her fetus, save the fetus at the expense of her own life. She also wanted my promise I would support that decision of hers. Her's was an extremely dangerous pregnancy - and that really tested my "pro-choice" respect of her right to her own decision - as I absolutely did NOT want to promise as it was exactly opposite what I would want. So I struggled with whether I had to make such a promise. Was it really just her decision? Or did I, our children and others have a say in it - did we HAVE to support her "choice" decision I/we did not agree with?

    There is a problem when we argue the ZEF is basically nothing, and then turn around and yet agree if a 3rd party, particularly the biofather, destroys it then we equate it to a murder case in punishment.

    My emotions say "fry the guy!" But there seems to me to be an inconsistency within this that is maybe too gender based or too contradictory in how serious was it what he did? There are men, not just women, who cry their hearts out at a miscarriage. I strongly believe in and support not only maternal instincts as a good thing, but also paternal instincts. Plus otherwise as a very strict legal duty of both. Making her emotions of such importance as violating them deserves life imprisonment, BUT violating his emotions is just nothing at all does not sit real well with me either.

    Many legal issues. For example, if it had NOT been the biofather that had done this, would only the biomother have a civil suit, or also the biofather too? If so, for what? Yet I think he would. Or at least I FEEL that he should.

    The notion that someone could do this to my wife and I could do nothing as supposedly I was not affected? I can't buy that.

    I'm just being honest here.
    An excellent post - thank you.

    I posted the thread because I believe charging this man with first-degree murder potentially opens up a lot of legal issues. I'm not aware of any similar case in the past where, in effect, this man performed an unwanted abortion - he caused the administration of a drug that induced labor prematurely, a drug that is used by doctors for this very purpose if the fetus is less than 9 weeks old. I know of cases where a person has been charged with a double homicide if a pregnant woman is killed and I could understand if a physical assault had caused her to miscarry, but this is unique and different from my perspective.

    One final point, if a doctor who routinely administers this drug combination to induce labor had administered this drug against the wishes of his patient would he have been charged with murder?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Certainly, and I have no problem with this as an assault case. Drugging anyone destructively is an assault. However, I do see a contradiction IF - as I believe - the man has as much liabilities after birth as the woman has. In short, this case makes me uncomfortable from both directions.

    Yet such contradictions aren't rare. My wife is more pro-actively pro-choice than anyone I know, yet she had given the hospital and her doctor a statement - sworn and notarized - that if they had to make the choice between her life or that of her fetus, save the fetus at the expense of her own life. She also wanted my promise I would support that decision of hers. Her's was an extremely dangerous pregnancy - and that really tested my "pro-choice" respect of her right to her own decision - as I absolutely did NOT want to promise as it was exactly opposite what I would want. So I struggled with whether I had to make such a promise. Was it really just her decision? Or did I, our children and others have a say in it - did we HAVE to support her "choice" decision I/we did not agree with?
    You can be as uncomfortable with it as you wish. I'm not being facetious. It's just that the law is not designed to make you comfortable

    I don't know about the laws in Canada, but I suspect that in both nations, the decision is entirely the womans. I know that's what the law says in the US. A woman can get an abortion even if her husband wants her to give birth.


    There is a problem when we argue the ZEF is basically nothing, and then turn around and yet agree if a 3rd party, particularly the biofather, destroys it then we equate it to a murder case in punishment.

    My emotions say "fry the guy!" But there seems to me to be an inconsistency within this that is maybe too gender based or too contradictory in how serious was it what he did? There are men, not just women, who cry their hearts out at a miscarriage. I strongly believe in and support not only maternal instincts as a good thing, but also paternal instincts. Plus otherwise as a very strict legal duty of both. Making her emotions of such importance as violating them deserves life imprisonment, BUT violating his emotions is just nothing at all does not sit real well with me either.
    There are two false premises above. One is that the law does not say that the ZEF is "nothing". It merely says that under our constitution, the ZEF has no rights that the govt has the power to protect.

    The other is about maternal and paternal instinct. That's nature. The law isn't based and parental instincts; It's based on the right to privacy, which allows a woman the right to choose to have an abortion...or not.


    Many legal issues. For example, if it had NOT been the biofather that had done this, would only the biomother have a civil suit, or also the biofather too? If so, for what? Yet I think he would. Or at least I FEEL that he should.

    The notion that someone could do this to my wife and I could do nothing as supposedly I was not affected? I can't buy that.

    I'm just being honest here.
    I don't know, but I suspect that you would have no standing to sue and the criminal charges are brought on behalf of the govt.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
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    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Fla. Man Accused of Killing Ex-Girlfriend's Fetus - ABC News

    Ex-girlfriend was six weeks, five days pregnant, by her ex-boyfriend. Ex-boyfriend didn't want to have a child, ex-girlfriend did.

    Ex-boyfriend tricked her into taking a pill that caused her to go into labor and lose the "baby".

    He is now charged with first-degree murder.

    Doesn't the crime of murder require a "person" to be killed? Doesn't abortion law tell us that a fetus that is six weeks, five days old is not a person?

    Shouldn't the pro-choice, pro-abortion crowd be outraged that this charge was laid and what is the impact going forward if he is convicted of first-degree murder?
    It's the double standard for sure, you can probably justify assault charges of sorts for what he did, maybe property damage. But not murder.
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The Unborn Victims of Violence Act specifies that the charge for the crime will be the same charge "for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child’s mother. "

    Under UVVA, the fetus is technically known as the "child in utero" and not "person"
    Didn't you use the term 'ZEF' earlier and now call this same baby "an unborn child"? It seems that the name of the baby changes with the situation, thereby magnifying the verbal gymnastics people use to defend their position on abortion.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Didn't you use the term 'ZEF' earlier and now call this same baby "an unborn child"? It seems that the name of the baby changes with the situation, thereby magnifying the verbal gymnastics people use to defend their position on abortion.
    Don't you understand what it means when a poster puts a phrase in quotes? Yeesh!!
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Therefore, why can't a man initiate the laying of a similar charge when the woman initiates the end of the "child in utero's" life?

    Whatever you want to call it otherwise, the guy here simply performed an abortion. Granted, it was against the woman's choice, but it wasn't a violent act such as he didn't try to kill her but only killed the child or he didn't kick and beat her causing her to miscarry. All he did was what any doctor involved in ending a pregnancy in the first 9 weeks would do.

    By your logic, if you want to commit "murder" of a fetus, it's ok, but if you don't want to, the same act is first-degree murder.
    It seems more like a case of assault.

    There is also the issue of father's rights, which has been an issue largely avoided. This man would have been paying for this child for 18 years had he not 'aborted' the baby.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    The guy unlawfully killed a person, that's murder. There's no double standard.
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    The guy unlawfully killed a person, that's murder. There's no double standard.
    It's not a person by law.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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