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Thread: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

  1. #441
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    This case could lead to the Unborn Victims of Violence Act being ruled unconstitutional.
    If a lower court rules it unconstitutional, it will make it all the way to the Supreme Court. If that happens, it's anyone's guess where the court will come down when given a clear chance to potentially rule on when life begins and the impact that may have on abortion.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    If a lower court rules it unconstitutional, it will make it all the way to the Supreme Court. If that happens, it's anyone's guess where the court will come down when given a clear chance to potentially rule on when life begins and the impact that may have on abortion.
    Good thing the current makeup of the USSC will not rule abortions illegal, idn't it?

  3. #443
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    If a lower court rules it unconstitutional, it will make it all the way to the Supreme Court. If that happens, it's anyone's guess where the court will come down when given a clear chance to potentially rule on when life begins and the impact that may have on abortion.
    I think you do not understand the Unborn Victims Act.
    I don't think the SC would even take on the case since the UVA does not protect the fetus as a personor child ...it protects the
    "child in utero" as the " victim" .

    It is also my educated opinion that the charge will reduced as part of a plea deal.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    I think you do not understand the Unborn Victims Act.
    I don't think the SC would even take on the case since the UVA does not protect the fetus as a personor child ...it protects the
    "child in utero" as the " victim" .

    It is also my educated opinion that the charge will reduced as part of a plea deal.
    I understand the intent of the UVA and I do believe that the SC will take up this case in two scenarios - first, if the man is convicted of first degree murder - second, if a lower court rules the federal law unconstitutional - both are well within the mandate of the SC. And if it gets there, I do believe they will opine on the issue of when life begins.

    It's also quite possible, as you suggest, that the prosecution has hit with the big hammer to avoid a court case and get this guy to plead out a lesser assault charge.

    As I've stated before, to me, the real wildcard here is that the guy used the medication that is frequently used by doctors to end a pregnancy within the first 9 weeks. To many people, myself included, it seems unconstitutional or at least illogical that if the woman says it's okay, this is not murder but if the woman doesn't consent, it's murder. Clearly, those who support abortion have a different view - that's what makes this case interesting to me.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  5. #445
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your knowledge of reproduction is as faulty as your claims about the law

    http://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/iss...no1_peters.pdf
    Ha ha, as you well know, correlation [and there is no correlation here even] is no certainty of, or does not even imply, causation. Nice try again... you are full of these are you not? Quite amusing.

    I would say though, since you have actually presented some potentially applicable evidence here, that your knowledge of reproduction, or at minimum supplying some basis at least as to what it is you have previously stated, seems far in advance to your knowledge of law and our Constitution [ the dearth of supplied evidence on that subject here so noted, again] as it regards the born and unborn, the powers provided by the Constitution for the Supreme Court, as well as the fact that the powers not delineated by our Constitution, which is a framework for the governance under a republican form with in a system of federalism [ power sharing by national and state governments] are specifically expressed under the 9th and 10th Amendments to our Constitution.

    So that we have a basis for terms, and we should probably have established this before so we don't have this sliding on meaning that can go on, what is your definition of "conception"?

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    To many people, myself included, it seems unconstitutional or at least illogical that if the woman says it's okay, this is not murder but if the woman doesn't consent, it's murder. Clearly, those who support abortion have a different view - that's what makes this case interesting to me.
    I don't know where people (on either side) got the idea that charges under UVVA are dependent on the mother wanting to keep the unborn child. I may have missed something, but when I read the UVVA I didn't see anything that suggests charges do not apply if the mother planned on getting an abortion. Instead, it says if someone causes harm to the fetus, they will be charged as if they caused the same harm to the mother.

    If this bill gives the abortion banning side any traction, it's due to the argument that the bill protects a fetus which in turn suggests that the fetus is being protected as a "person" even if the bill refers to it as something other than a person (ie "a child in utero")
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Ha ha, as you well know, correlation [and there is no correlation here even] is no certainty of, or does not even imply, causation. Nice try again... you are full of these are you not? Quite amusing.

    I would say though, since you have actually presented some potentially applicable evidence here, that your knowledge of reproduction, or at minimum supplying some basis at least as to what it is you have previously stated, seems far in advance to your knowledge of law and our Constitution [ the dearth of supplied evidence on that subject here so noted, again] as it regards the born and unborn, the powers provided by the Constitution for the Supreme Court, as well as the fact that the powers not delineated by our Constitution, which is a framework for the governance under a republican form with in a system of federalism [ power sharing by national and state governments] are specifically expressed under the 9th and 10th Amendments to our Constitution.

    So that we have a basis for terms, and we should probably have established this before so we don't have this sliding on meaning that can go on, what is your definition of "conception"?
    I made no correlation = causation argument. I merely noted that you have deficits in more than one area knowledge relating to this issue

    As far as the definition of conception, I own no definitions. Instead, I recognize that there are a number of ways in which the word conception can be defined.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #448
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I made no correlation = causation argument. I merely noted that you have deficits in more than one area knowledge relating to this issue

    As far as the definition of conception, I own no definitions. Instead, I recognize that there are a number of ways in which the word conception can be defined.
    Well now, good job, finally got some points up on the board here. Congratulations! They are hollow points, but points nevertheless. Additionally, I am certainly aware that I do not know everything, but in debate my only real requirement is to know more than my opponent.

    And look, you are already sliding. So lets see now then, what definition, or rather, which of the "number of ways" that conception can be defined" were you using when you submitted a reply to my earlier comment, on May 19 at 4:08PM when you said, and I cut and paste quote, "at the moment of conception, the ZEF does not have "separate DNA""?

    Hard to debate someone who himself does not even know what he means by the terms he has chosen. I do understand your reluctance to being pinned down again, however, if you do not know what you meant when you say that, how could I be expected to know?

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Well now, good job, finally got some points up on the board here. Congratulations! They are hollow points, but points nevertheless. Additionally, I am certainly aware that I do not know everything, but in debate my only real requirement is to know more than my opponent.

    And look, you are already sliding. So lets see now then, what definition, or rather, which of the "number of ways" that conception can be defined" were you using when you submitted a reply to my earlier comment, on May 19 at 4:08PM when you said, and I cut and paste quote, "at the moment of conception, the ZEF does not have "separate DNA""?

    Hard to debate someone who himself does not even know what he means by the terms he has chosen. I do understand your reluctance to being pinned down again, however, if you do not know what you meant when you say that, how could I be expected to know?
    I see you continue to have nothing factual to contribute here. As hard as you may try, you're not able to point to anything I've said that is not factual.

    However, on the odd chance that you do have an actual argument to make, as opposed to fishing for something you can criticize, I will continue to review your posts and I will point out any misstatements of fact that you post.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #450
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I see you continue to have nothing factual to contribute here. As hard as you may try, you're not able to point to anything I've said that is not factual.

    However, on the odd chance that you do have an actual argument to make, as opposed to fishing for something you can criticize, I will continue to review your posts and I will point out any misstatements of fact that you post.
    Gosh…

    Not able to point to anything you have said that is not factual…with the multiplicity of targets so readily available, one may feel the uncertainty faced by a single mosquito hovering over a nudist camp…

    Where to start, where to start…..???


    It’s not like I have time to go over them all, but… let’s us just go back through some of those factual inaccuracies you have undeniably stated, since you keep challenging me to do so and they keep proliferating like mutating germs.

    In this thread, and again, just picking the main ones as who has time to go back through and flag EVERY SINGLE ONE of your erroneous “facts”… here is a hurried smattering.

    Another thing, one who makes such statements should not go unchallenged just due to laziness, so…

    Post #151

    You said: “Actually, most of the Africans who were enslaved died before they ever got to America”

    This is factually wrong as the estimates are 12.5 -15% were lost in the Middle Passage and about 4.5% lost on the Western African Atlantic side prior to departure.
    PS--- you even "liked" this yourself as a statement of the proof of your own off-the-cuff inaccuracy.


    Post #188

    You said: “The constitution only protects the rights of "persons". Under the constitution, a human is not a "person" until it is born. Therefore, until it is born, a child can not be protected by the law because the constitution does not grant the govt the power to protect the unborn”

    Factually untrue, proven by the fact that you cannot to this day point out anywhere the Constitution says anything of the sort. The Constitution is silent on the issue.

    Post 212

    You said: “The bottom line is the twists, turns, and spins that the right has to go through in order to rationalize how their belief in a govt of power limited by the constitution can be squared with their desire to have the govt assume a power that was not granted to it by the constitution, and how their belief in liberty and freedom is consistent with the disdain they show for freedom when they trivialize people's right to self-determination (ie "choice") are the real "verbal gymnastics"

    As already proven, the Constitution does provide notice that We, the People, who are the ACTUAL government, have rights not enumerated, expressed or implied, at our sole discretion. Should we decide to do so, so shall it be done.

    Post #219

    You said: “The DOI is not a legal document”

    While illegal, as a form of teason under an English government, this was a formal document expressing the breach of the Social Contract by King George III that was iniated under our Second Contenental Congress…how is that not a legal document*? In the most eloquent of language, overseen by many an American attorney, witnessed and signed in a very legal manner. How is the Declaration of Independence not a “legal document” that is in continuous use to this day? You never proved that statement either.
    *By raising armies, directing strategy, appointing diplomats, and making formal treaties, the [Second Continental ] Congress acted as the de facto national government of what became the United States [Cogliano, Revolutionary America, 1763-1815, 113.].


    Post 231

    You said: “UVVA does not protect any rights of the unborn. It protects the mother”

    Does the "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" (UVVA), protecting fetal rights, threaten abortion rights? - ACLU - ProCon.org

    You will note that the text of the law makes reference to the unborn child starting with this language:

    Sec. 1841. Protection of unborn children
    (a) (1) Whoever engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the death of, or bodily injury (as defined in section 1365) to, a child, who is in utero at the time the conduct takes place, is guilty of a separate offense under this section.

    Concluding with this language:

    (d) As used in this section, the term “unborn child” means a child in utero, and the term “child in utero” or “child, who is in utero” means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.

    If you actually read the the law, it only mentions the mother in reference to a crime committed as a comparison to a crime that had been committed on the mother [ it makes no mention of this being a crime against the mother]. I again challenge you to point out the language therein where it does so in this act…



    Post 303

    You said: “Because the UVVA specifies that people who attack a mother and cause a fetus to die should be charged with murder.

    Once again, I challenge you to point out the language in the law that says anything about an attack to the mother except as a comparison to the penalty if there is an attack on an unborn child…this bill is all about the unborn child, its title is the Unborn Victims of Violence Act for gosh sakes.

    And in regards to our current iteration wherein you will not even deign to give definition to the terms you use…yet saying that separate DNA is not in evidence upon conception….let me do the work for us.

    Conception by Merriam Webster definition: 1 a (1) : the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both (2) : embryo, fetus

    Conception by Yourdictionary.com The formation of a zygote resulting from the union of a sperm and egg cell; fertilization.

    As fertilization might be put under question…

    by Merriam Webster definition: Fertilization (2) : the process of union of two gametes whereby the somatic chromosome number is restored and the development of a new individual is initiated.

    Yourdictionary.com Fertilization science definition: The process by which two gametes (reproductive cells having a single, haploid set of chromosomes) fuse to become a zygote, which develops into a new organism. The resultant zygote is diploid (it has two sets of chromosomes).

    Oxford English Dictionary: Definition of Fertilization noun: 1the action or process of fertilizing an egg or a female animal or plant, involving the fusion of male and female gametes to form a zygote.

    And finally should your definition of Zygote not up to date…

    by Merriam Webster definition: Zygote=a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell

    Yourdictionary.com science definition: Zygote : The cell formed by the union of the nuclei of two reproductive cells (gametes), especially a fertilized egg cell.

    If you are unable or unwilling to actually debate, just let me know. I will keep this list of inaccuracies handy to remind you…should you desire to keep uttering this undeniable equivocation regarding only stating the factual.
    Last edited by Gaugingcatenate; 05-24-13 at 11:19 PM.

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