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Thread: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

  1. #411
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Laws of man have no providence in the face of God.
    The laws of God have no provenance in the United States. Again, no matter how much certain people might want to believe otherwise.

    Not to mention, of course, that God never said abortion was murder and his Chosen People never viewed it as murder, and it has never been prosecuted as murder in any Judeochristian country.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    Not to mention, of course, that God never said abortion was murder and his Chosen People never viewed it as murder, and it has never been prosecuted as murder in any Judeochristian country.
    while that is true, it doesn't seem like it was exactly an accepted practice, either. In fact, jewish medical oaths dating back to the 6th century make rather \ explicit judgements against the abortion, and generally, and it seems to be only permissible in instances where the mothers life was under threat and prior to the head becoming visible during birth


    But I am generally lost why we are even discussing this, as Jewish religious law has little bearing here

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    Meh. Man poisoned his girlfriend to take away her right to decide whether or not to have a baby. He may not be guilty of "murder" in my eyes, but I'll be damned if I feel sorry for him.
    He is guilty of the theft by deception, a misdemeanor.

  4. #414
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    But I am generally lost why we are even discussing this, as Jewish religious law has little bearing here
    I'm not the one who brought it up.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    I'm not the one who brought it up.

    that wasn't directed at you, more the discussion in general

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    It is not the unlawful and deliberate killing of another person, because it is not unlawful and the entity killed is not legally a person. Not to mention, of course, that even when it was strictly prohibited, abortion was never considered to be murder; that is wholly a modern invention.
    In Webster's New World College dictionary, one of the listed definitions for murder reads as follows "to kill inhumanely or barbarously, as in warfare"

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    It's simple for me - I believe that life begins at conception, this is why I'm pro-life.
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Indeed, I am pro-choice
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #418
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    In Webster's New World College dictionary, one of the listed definitions for murder reads as follows "to kill inhumanely or barbarously, as in warfare"
    That works, too, but defining abortion as "inhumane" when the vast majority of abortions occur before the fetus is physically, biologically capable of feeling pain is more than a little wonky. We could quibble over the definition of "barbarous" but it seems to me that killing something with surgical tools in a sanitized medical clinic doesn't fit the bill, either.

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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    That works, too, but defining abortion as "inhumane" when the vast majority of abortions occur before the fetus is physically, biologically capable of feeling pain is more than a little wonky.
    I'm pointing out that murder seemingly has a definition beyond the legal one. That isn't the same as claiming abortion is murder

    We could quibble over the definition of "barbarous" but it seems to me that killing something with surgical tools in a sanitized medical clinic doesn't fit the bill, either.
    you could cite many "barbarous" things that happened under such conditions, with lobotomy being just one

  10. #420
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    Re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    GO ahead, prove that the constitution says that the unborn are persons...that the unborn have rights...
    Imitation, it is often said, is the sincerest form of flattery, so I do appreciate the fact that you attempt to use my own argument against me.

    Just that irksome little detail that we are not arguing anywhere near the same thing… so, as a method, my approach works decently well for my argument…but unfortunately [for you], it really does not bring the same result for yours. As you can clearly see going back through our exchanges, I made none of the provably false claims regarding what the Constitution provides that YOU did. It was just YOU who made such claims… declaring that the Constitution only allows for "born persons". My point was that the Constitution was/is silent, not that the Constitution specifically recognizes the unborn or not.

    The Constitution indicates no particular position on the matter.

    So, again…nice try.



    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Oh, and what about the proof regarding your opinion about the Supreme Court and where the Constitution expressly states their powers on how to apply the Constitution in such cases. Like the non existent " includes unborn persons" have rights in the Constitution per your tilted interpretation, the Constitution is silent also on how the Supreme Court is to to apply its power in this situation.
    Ditto on the flattery, ditto on the fact that my argument works for mine, not at all for your argument, ditto on the reason. I NEVER indicated that our Constitution said anything about the powers of the Supreme Court as you have incongruously stated that it did. Then I asked you to provide any, ANY, proof that the Constitution said anything like you said it said [ exactly reminiscent of the irreconcilable difficulties you had with your " born persons" assertion] and you then perversely misidentified this as a "dodge" on my part. The irony being that it was you who were dodging, failing to even make an attempt to prove your [now obvious to yourself and most the rest of us] infelicitous and yet unproven avowal that the Constitution does give powers particular to the way you said that it does... which it most assuredly does not.

    Sooooo...

    Ditto on the nice try.

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