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Thread: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, the woman was not murdered.

    But her "say so" doesn't matter. Whether or not she was going to have an abortion doesn't matter because regardless, the perp took her ability to make that choice away.
    Just so. Like I said, a serious crime.
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Therefore, why can't a man initiate the laying of a similar charge when the woman initiates the end of the "child in utero's" life?
    Because a woman ending her pregnancy does not interfere with a mans ability to end any pregnancy he may have


    Whatever you want to call it otherwise, the guy here simply performed an abortion. Granted, it was against the woman's choice, but it wasn't a violent act such as he didn't try to kill her but only killed the child or he didn't kick and beat her causing her to miscarry. All he did was what any doctor involved in ending a pregnancy in the first 9 weeks would do.

    By your logic, if you want to commit "murder" of a fetus, it's ok, but if you don't want to, the same act is first-degree murder.
    For one thing, it's not *my* logic; it's the law

    And the law doesn't say that it is murder; It says the person who committed the act will be charged with murder.
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Because a woman ending her pregnancy does not interfere with a mans ability to end any pregnancy he may have

    For one thing, it's not *my* logic; it's the law

    And the law doesn't say that it is murder; It says the person who committed the act will be charged with murder.
    Fair enough - just from my perspective, pro-choice women, men as well, who believe that a six week, five day old fetus is just a clump of DNA and not a life should oppose such a charge - it gives courts the opportunity to expand the definition of "person".
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Fair enough - just from my perspective, pro-choice women, men as well, who believe that a six week, five day old fetus is just a clump of DNA and not a life should oppose such a charge - it gives courts the opportunity to expand the definition of "person".
    Why would people who support a person's right to choose be OK when someone takes away a person ability to choose?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Therefore, why can't a man initiate the laying of a similar charge when the woman initiates the end of the "child in utero's" life?
    The child being killed isn't in his body. She can kill it without doing any harm whatsoever to him.

    Also, I would argue that it's her baby alone until she offers it to him and he accepts... as long as it's in her womb, it isn't anybody's baby but her own.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Whatever you want to call it otherwise, the guy here simply performed an abortion. Granted, it was against the woman's choice, but it wasn't a violent act such as he didn't try to kill her but only killed the child or he didn't kick and beat her causing her to miscarry. All he did was what any doctor involved in ending a pregnancy in the first 9 weeks would do.
    Meh. I see your point, but I wouldn't have wanted him charged with first-degree murder in the first place. I'm just comfortable with it because I'm comfortable with handing out capital sentences for a lot of crimes, and this is one of them-- it wasn't just assault, but it was a particularly cowardly and vicious sort of assault, similar to a rape. Far as I'm concerned, we should hang the son of a bitch.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    By your logic, if you want to commit "murder" of a fetus, it's ok, but if you don't want to, the same act is first-degree murder.
    Considering where it's growing, I don't consider that logic improper in the slightest.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Why would people who support a person's right to choose be OK when someone takes away a person ability to choose?
    You can be as cute as you want and avoid the question - just means you're not consistent in your views.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Curious why it is a FEDERAL case, rather than a state court case. I also would like to see the actual charge and relevant statute, not the lay-language used by the media.
    Probably because of the product tampering charge that caused the death of the fetus.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    You can be as cute as you want and avoid the question - just means you're not consistent in your views.
    Avoid the question? What are you talking about?

    You didn't ask any question!!

    The point I was making was to point out that your belief that the pro-choicers position on abortion being about the state of the ZEF was incorrect. The pro-choice position is about the mothers rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Avoid the question? What are you talking about?

    You didn't ask any question!!

    The point I was making was to point out that your belief that the pro-choicers position on abortion being about the state of the ZEF was incorrect. The pro-choice position is about the mothers rights.
    Sorry, but you justify it by claiming it's not a person. It's a woman choosing to remove a wart, not a woman choosing to end a life.

    By charging this as murder, it is society saying that some people have the right to "kill" but others don't. It says that the woman is in charge of this "life" and no-one else. There was a time in America when black people were owned and their lives were in the hands of their owners. This charge implies that the woman is the sole person able to end this life - she owns the life - sounds like the modern day definition of slavery to me.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Therefore, why can't a man initiate the laying of a similar charge when the woman initiates the end of the "child in utero's" life?

    Whatever you want to call it otherwise, the guy here simply performed an abortion. Granted, it was against the woman's choice, but it wasn't a violent act such as he didn't try to kill her but only killed the child or he didn't kick and beat her causing her to miscarry. All he did was what any doctor involved in ending a pregnancy in the first 9 weeks would do.

    By your logic, if you want to commit "murder" of a fetus, it's ok, but if you don't want to, the same act is first-degree murder.
    This case does raise the problem of if a woman can abort against the man's wishes, why can't the man abort against the woman's wishes?

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