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Thread: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

  1. #191
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    ... would be never. A human being cannot be a parasite to a human being.
    That's a convenient justification for ignoring the biological reality of pregnancy and therefore forcing women into slavery to human beings that don't even have rights.

  2. #192
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    I'm glad to hear that. Still, had to make sure I put that into the ether, regardless of others.

    As to your question, the only way this could be considered murder (and let's not forget, that's a legal term) is if abortion was considered justified homicide. Since it isn't, this charge has no legs to stand on legally.

    This is just an obvious ploy by the anti-choice to push it up the court bracket and take another swipe at Row. They're using her as nothing but a pony to their ends.

    So that means one of two things happens. Florida becomes yet another anti-woman state, or the guy walks away with pretty much no penalty for seriously assaulting this woman. Either result is an embarrassment to this country.

    The fact that these people are more interested in making political moves than they are in protecting the woman and making sure this guy goes to jail says a lot about their priorities and how they feel (or don't feel) about women.
    I'm glad you chimed in - I'd hoped you would, and I expected you'd have just this reaction. I don't believe the woman pushed for the murder charge, it was the same state prosecutor who decided to jump in on the Trevon Martin case and up the charges to murder. It seems to me, as you've said, the defense in this matter has to be that the fetus is not a person, therefore, there is no murder. If the prosecution tries this as a first degree murder they have to convince the jury that the fetus is a person and then this becomes a case that will go all the way to the Supreme Court and could be a vehicle for having Roe v Wade narrowed.

    The two legal positions cannot continue to stand together - they are not consistent.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  3. #193
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    That's a convenient justification for ignoring the biological reality of pregnancy and therefore forcing women into slavery to human beings that don't even have rights.
    If you were interested in biological reality you wouldn't compare natural mammalian reproduction to parasitism appropriate of nothing.

    If you were interested in opposing slavery you wouldn't support the law considering living human beings to be subhuman property.

  4. #194
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    In medical practice parents also have the right to pull the plug and refuse medical care for their children. Is that another form of slavery?
    You're analogy is nonsense. Parents do not have the right to refuse medical care to a child who is not dying or who is not, in effect, brain dead and beyond recovery.

    Parents have a legal responsibility to provide care to their children at the risk of having them removed from the parents' care. If a child required a heart operation, if a parent denied that care the child would be taken from the parent and given the necessary care.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  5. #195
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    If you were interested in biological reality you wouldn't compare natural mammalian reproduction to parasitism appropriate of nothing.
    Just because it's natural doesn't mean that it's morally good. What else do you call an organism that survives solely through the forcible extraction of nutrients from another organism's metabolic processes? It's an absolutely appropriate comparison that you are only dismissing because you are trying to justify an irrational and inhumane moral stance that denies human rights to half of humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    If you were interested in opposing slavery you wouldn't support the law considering living human beings to be subhuman property.
    They're not property because they cannot be bought and sold. They can be killed because they are not members of society, but they cannot legally or morally be exploited.

  6. #196
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I'm glad you chimed in - I'd hoped you would, and I expected you'd have just this reaction. I don't believe the woman pushed for the murder charge, it was the same state prosecutor who decided to jump in on the Trevon Martin case and up the charges to murder. It seems to me, as you've said, the defense in this matter has to be that the fetus is not a person, therefore, there is no murder. If the prosecution tries this as a first degree murder they have to convince the jury that the fetus is a person and then this becomes a case that will go all the way to the Supreme Court and could be a vehicle for having Roe v Wade narrowed.

    The two legal positions cannot continue to stand together - they are not consistent.
    Well, I am nothing if not consistent. I'm actually glad I'm pretty predictable in this respect.

    Creating an inconsistent set of codes that can't stand together was always the point. And they're using this woman -- essentially saying it's ok if she gets no justice -- as a vehicle to help get them another mile down the road of forcing these codes into conflict.

    A lot of anti-choice people keep trying to tell me they consider the woman an equal or better to a ZEF, but things like this are the reason I don't believe them.

  7. #197
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    I can compare the abortion issue to slavery as well, with pregnant women being forced into involuntary servitude to produce offspring for people who contribute nothing to the process.
    Your argument fails when you realize except in very rare cases the woman wasn't forced to get pregnant. There are consequences to personal actions/choices.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    You're analogy is nonsense. Parents do not have the right to refuse medical care to a child who is not dying or who is not, in effect, brain dead and beyond recovery.

    Parents have a legal responsibility to provide care to their children at the risk of having them removed from the parents' care. If a child required a heart operation, if a parent denied that care the child would be taken from the parent and given the necessary care.
    Yes, they do, actually. As long as they're religious. This has been a big point of friction over the years with Christian Scientists who believe prayer will heal their sick children. They wind up dying of simple, treatable illnesses like ear infections. And the doctors can't report if they never see the children, obviously.

    Yes, there is a voluntary reporting system if you intend to deny your child medical care, but obviously no one actually uses that.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Well, I am nothing if not consistent. I'm actually glad I'm pretty predictable in this respect.

    Creating an inconsistent set of codes that can't stand together was always the point. And they're using this woman -- essentially saying it's ok if she gets no justice -- as a vehicle to help get them another mile down the road of forcing these codes into conflict.

    A lot of anti-choice people keep trying to tell me they consider the woman an equal or better to a ZEF, but things like this are the reason I don't believe them.
    The real complicator in this matter, from my perspective, is that the man ended this pregnancy in the same manner that the woman could have ended the pregnancy herself, had she choosen to do so. It calls into question why a woman could "murder" and creates two classes of people. I don't know the medical complications that can possibly occur if such a drug is administered even if the woman knows. I guess it's possible that any drug could be deadly. In that regard, I think a charge of attempted murder or attempted manslaughter may have been more appropriate if there is medical research that would support the pill could be harmful in some circumstances.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    You're analogy is nonsense. Parents do not have the right to refuse medical care to a child who is not dying or who is not, in effect, brain dead and beyond recovery.

    Parents have a legal responsibility to provide care to their children at the risk of having them removed from the parents' care. If a child required a heart operation, if a parent denied that care the child would be taken from the parent and given the necessary care.
    That is not true. A parent can refuse to give consent to any procedure, even if that means the child will die, if the procedure is "invasive" or "intrusive"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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