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Thread: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    I agree completely that it's a crime. Some sort of very serious assault.

    But if the charge is first-degree murder...it is specifically about the rights of the fetus. The woman was not murdered.
    "Malicious wounding" sounds about right. "Mayhem", "grievous bodily harm". None of those carry the same penalty as murder in the first... but there are circumstances under which I'd have no problem with imposing the same penalty for lesser offenses.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Notice how even the girls lawyer is not arguing that the fetus had any rights. Instead, he is arguing that the girl was deprived of her right to choose whether or not to have a child.

    No matter how hard you try to twist the facts, the truth is that this case is supported by the pro-choice philosophy.
    I don't know how much that one, specific line matters but he's still charged with first degree murder, not depriving her a right to choose something.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Doesn't that law usually only come into play when a woman is murdered and her unborn child dies too? A murder with special circumstances, such as the Peterson murder in California a few years back.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree with you completely, but CanadaJohn has a point. Does the charge of "first-degree murder" make sense in this case? That is the issue here.
    Under the Unborn Victims of Violence, the charge is the same as if the harm had come to the mother

    (2) (A) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided under Federal law for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child’s mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Doesn't that law usually only come into play when a woman is murdered and her unborn child dies too? A murder with special circumstances, such as the Peterson murder in California a few years back.
    No, it doesn't
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    "Malicious wounding" sounds about right. "Mayhem", "grievous bodily harm". None of those carry the same penalty as murder in the first... but there are circumstances under which I'd have no problem with imposing the same penalty for lesser offenses.
    See, I'm all for the man being charged with murder because I believe the fetus is a human being deserving of protection, but that's not what the women's right to choose - pro-abortion crowd believes and preaches.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    I was wrong, yes, according to the bizarre legalities of the case...but I was obviously not wrong in asserting that the woman was not murdered.

    Again, it is a law in which a person's guilt is established solely on the choice of the woman. Further, it established on her say-so, even if she is not being truthful.

    I'm not speaking from some "men are alweays victimized" theme...nor do I oppose abortion. In fact, I think abortion laws should be generally more liberal, access easier, the woman's choice as all-important.

    This, however, is an entirely different matter.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    See, I'm all for the man being charged with murder because I believe the fetus is a human being deserving of protection, but that's not what the women's right to choose - pro-abortion crowd believes and preaches.
    The Unborn Victims of Violence Act specifies that the charge for the crime will be the same charge "for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child’s mother. "

    Under UVVA, the fetus is technically known as the "child in utero" and not "person"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    I was wrong, yes, according to the bizarre legalities of the case...but I was obviously not wrong in asserting that the woman was not murdered.

    Again, it is a law in which a person's guilt is established solely on the choice of the woman. Further, it established on her say-so, even if she is not being truthful.

    I'm not speaking from some "men are alweays victimized" theme...nor do I oppose abortion. In fact, I think abortion laws should be generally more liberal, access easier, the woman's choice as all-important.

    This, however, is an entirely different matter.
    Yes, the woman was not murdered.

    But her "say so" doesn't matter. Whether or not she was going to have an abortion doesn't matter because regardless, the perp took her ability to make that choice away.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The Unborn Victims of Violence Act specifies that the charge for the crime will be the same charge "for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child’s mother. "

    Under UVVA, the fetus is technically known as the "child in utero" and not "person"
    Therefore, why can't a man initiate the laying of a similar charge when the woman initiates the end of the "child in utero's" life?

    Whatever you want to call it otherwise, the guy here simply performed an abortion. Granted, it was against the woman's choice, but it wasn't a violent act such as he didn't try to kill her but only killed the child or he didn't kick and beat her causing her to miscarry. All he did was what any doctor involved in ending a pregnancy in the first 9 weeks would do.

    By your logic, if you want to commit "murder" of a fetus, it's ok, but if you don't want to, the same act is first-degree murder.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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