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Thread: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

  1. #31
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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    That seems unlikely. The ethical leap from embryo to human is rather large. In the 15 years since Dolly I've never once heard a single scientist advocate for the killing of humans to use as resources for medical applications. I'm not sure what else I could say on that count.
    The leap isn't large at all. I just made it. I don't accept of adopt it however because of other things i accept, like unfashionable religion. In a purely mechanistic view of the universe, there really isn't much difference between am embryo and a mature human, they merely represent different points on a continuum to which people are conditioned to appoint wholly arbitrary values which are subject to revision.

    If you want to lean about scientists advocating for "for the killing of humans to use as resources for medical applications," a perusal pf the histories of Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union will be most instructive.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This is the most frustrating line of reasoning I hear from people. It is childish that based on closely held political convictions people will broadly dismiss entire fields of research and effort as nothing more than a part of some grand corporate chicanery that will never benefit the average person. It's all in "their" hands, you know, the 'drug companies'.

    Yes there are ethical problems and considerations that crop up with any of these big entities, and the most emotive among them is probably drug manufacturers. However! It is utterly unthinking to sweepingly throw up your hands and say that 'they' are going to stop this from happening or prevent it from having a positive impact.

    Hasn't your life improved over the past 30 years? Was MRI halted in its tracks? What about new drug therapies? Other new technologies that you find value in?

    I cannot stand our countries obsession with corporate and political conspiracy, it mindlessly hardens attitudes and numbs debate. It's also silly.
    Do you honestly think society is ready to clone humans? To what end? The best possible scenario- that the science is only used to make people live longer and healthier- is just the lesser of evils.
    If you think I'm some fringe type having a left-wing knee-jerk reaction, go ask a conservative, Republican soybean farmer who's been sued by Monsanto.

  3. #33
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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    There is limited potential benefit of cloning humans, at least, ethically. Cloning is just an alternative means of making an new human. The new human will still possess the same human rights as you do, as any other human produced the conventional way.

    I can only assume - hope, really - that talk of harvesting your own clone for organs was done only in jest...

    It's rare to see science fiction do the concept justice, but ethically speaking, a clone is not property or raw materials to be exploited or harvested.

  4. #34
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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    I can't quite put my finger on it, but something about this story is disturbing. Maybe it's because I can see the myriad of absues that will come of this technology, or maybe that I'm just noticing the obvious trend that technology creates problems that needs more technology to solve. Humanity is really caught in a progress trap right now, especially western nations. We jump head long into these discoveries and they almost always have dire, unforseen consequences. Then we need more technology to deal with it, and the progress trap deepens.

    Based on our track record of what we're doing to this planet and each other, I doubt that humans have the collective emotional maturity to engineer ourselves responsibly. And that fact aside, most of our major diseases are caused by the imbalanced way humans are living in the modern world. We are turning to really complicated solutions to deal with things that could easily be solved in a generation or two with a change in priorities.

    It's childlike to constantly seek escape from death. It's never going to happen. I don't want to see humans living to 200. The old vanguard needs to let go, and the longer they hold on, the less likely things are to change for the better. The human life cycle is fine where it is. We don't need millions of people living longer. It's not for the highest good of all life on this planet.

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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    I can't quite put my finger on it, but something about this story is disturbing. Maybe it's because I can see the myriad of absues that will come of this technology, or maybe that I'm just noticing the obvious trend that technology creates problems that needs more technology to solve. Humanity is really caught in a progress trap right now, especially western nations. We jump head long into these discoveries and they almost always have dire, unforseen consequences. Then we need more technology to deal with it, and the progress trap deepens.

    Based on our track record of what we're doing to this planet and each other, I doubt that humans have the collective emotional maturity to engineer ourselves responsibly. And that fact aside, most of our major diseases are caused by the imbalanced way humans are living in the modern world. We are turning to really complicated solutions to deal with things that could easily be solved in a generation or two with a change in priorities.

    It's childlike to constantly seek escape from death. It's never going to happen. I don't want to see humans living to 200. The old vanguard needs to let go, and the longer they hold on, the less likely things are to change for the better. The human life cycle is fine where it is. We don't need millions of people living longer. It's not for the highest good of all life on this planet.
    I agree.
    I'd be all for this science becoming technology IF it was limited to stem-cell production but I'm absolutely sure that nothing could stop the ball once it was allowed to start rolling. In fact, it may be rolling right now.

  6. #36
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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Do you honestly think society is ready to clone humans? To what end? The best possible scenario- that the science is only used to make people live longer and healthier- is just the lesser of evils.
    If you think I'm some fringe type having a left-wing knee-jerk reaction, go ask a conservative, Republican soybean farmer who's been sued by Monsanto.
    No one is actually talking about cloning humans, especially not pharmaceutical companies. This is about a mechanism for harvesting embryonic stem cells. It would be counter-productive to actual clone an embryo to the point where you can implant it via IVF, let it gestate, be born, raise it, and then slaughter it just so you could get an organ. The whole goal is to just grow organs from scratch!

    As a side note one of the biggest myths about GMO's is that Monsanto and other producers routinely fall upon hapless farmers and sue them for patent infringement. This is so rare its difficult to find cases: Top Five Myths Of Genetically Modified Seeds, Busted : The Salt : NPR

    Edit: I think they've filed suit like 145 times for intentional infringement in the past 16 years which is extremely low, and the standard for intentional infringement is rather high.
    Last edited by Sherman123; 05-15-13 at 07:30 PM.

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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    The leap isn't large at all. I just made it. I don't accept of adopt it however because of other things i accept, like unfashionable religion. In a purely mechanistic view of the universe, there really isn't much difference between am embryo and a mature human, they merely represent different points on a continuum to which people are conditioned to appoint wholly arbitrary values which are subject to revision.

    If you want to lean about scientists advocating for "for the killing of humans to use as resources for medical applications," a perusal pf the histories of Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union will be most instructive.
    Having one sentence follow another is not the same as having a logical closeness between them. There is a world of difference between raising a human being to the point of organ maturity so you can slaughter him for his organs, and using embryonic stem cells to create organs, repair damage, etc.

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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    I can't quite put my finger on it, but something about this story is disturbing. Maybe it's because I can see the myriad of absues that will come of this technology, or maybe that I'm just noticing the obvious trend that technology creates problems that needs more technology to solve. Humanity is really caught in a progress trap right now, especially western nations. We jump head long into these discoveries and they almost always have dire, unforseen consequences. Then we need more technology to deal with it, and the progress trap deepens.

    Based on our track record of what we're doing to this planet and each other, I doubt that humans have the collective emotional maturity to engineer ourselves responsibly. And that fact aside, most of our major diseases are caused by the imbalanced way humans are living in the modern world. We are turning to really complicated solutions to deal with things that could easily be solved in a generation or two with a change in priorities.

    It's childlike to constantly seek escape from death. It's never going to happen. I don't want to see humans living to 200. The old vanguard needs to let go, and the longer they hold on, the less likely things are to change for the better. The human life cycle is fine where it is. We don't need millions of people living longer. It's not for the highest good of all life on this planet.
    It isn't childlike, it's exciting. The possibility of escaping the terrible age restrictions that evolution foisted upon us is tantalizing. Death is bad because it kills people. The annihilation of a life is not something that causes me joy. Whether that life is the 90 year old suffering from heart failure or the 10 year old battling leukemia. Death is death and no matter how many euphemisms, aphorisms, or maxims we come up with to make us feel better about the finality of death (death makes life worth living!) it does not change the unmitigated tragedy of the extinguishing of a consciousness. Biotechnology in tandem with other advancing fields of science offer the very real possibility over the next few centuries (perhaps sooner) of finally allowing us to take control over our own fates and increasing our mastery over nature.

  9. #39
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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    It doesn't excite you? It sounds pretty awesome to me. I don't want to turn this into an evolution vs creation argument at all, but one of the biggest arguments against intelligent design is that we're not really designed very well. Many living creatures have all kinds of redundancies and weaknesses as a result of the gradual change from evolution via natural election. Not having to rely on that kind of gradual change and overcoming those weaknesses could turn us into the superhuman beings that people have dreamed about for thousands of years. We could all be Hercules. We could delete the appendix from our genetic code. We could give ourselves a more robust immune system that could fight off HIV with ease. How awesome would it be just to fix our vulnerability to astigmatisms and give everyone 20/20 vision? Obviously, "we" refers to future generations. You can't really change a living creature's genetics for the better. At least we can't now.

    We can create a human race that is much more protected against the natural dangers of the world, that lives in its physical and mental prime for two hundred years, doesn't suffer from cancers or diabetes, and never again is a child born with Down Syndrome. How can that be frightening and not fill you with hope and excitement?
    Didnt Hitler try this?

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    Re: Scientists Clone Human Embryo for the First Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    No one is actually talking about cloning humans, especially not pharmaceutical companies. This is about a mechanism for harvesting embryonic stem cells. It would be counter-productive to actual clone an embryo to the point where you can implant it via IVF, let it gestate, be born, raise it, and then slaughter it just so you could get an organ. The whole goal is to just grow organs from scratch!

    As a side note one of the biggest myths about GMO's is that Monsanto and other producers routinely fall upon hapless farmers and sue them for patent infringement. This is so rare its difficult to find cases: Top Five Myths Of Genetically Modified Seeds, Busted : The Salt : NPR

    Edit: I think they've filed suit like 145 times for intentional infringement in the past 16 years which is extremely low, and the standard for intentional infringement is rather high.
    I know the intention now is to produce stem cells- my concern is that it wouldn't stop there. Stem cells are so readily available from placentae that I doubt that was the motivation, and my references to cloning were replies to this, " Screw natural selection, we're going to intelligently design ourselves." from earlier in the thread.
    As for Monsanto, they actively investigate hundreds of farmers a year and have brought hundreds, maybe thousands of actions that are settled out-of-court.b Those 145-or-whatever lawsuits their website admits to- does it say how much money they got from them?

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