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Thread: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Furthermore, the GOP did this themselves. In the Bush years, liberal non-profits were targeted specifically. What is actually worse about that is Citizens' United didn't happen, so they weren't functioning as PACs. So there really wasn't a reasonable reason to target them specifically. Tax experts for years have been complaining that the 501(c)4 has been abused up the yin yang. I personally think that the IRS didn't go far enough. We either have to get Congress to rewrite the 501(c)4 or we come to peace with letting the IRS go ape **** on potential PAC abusers.
    I'm guessing that you are not aware of the abuses/violations committed by the IRS, or are in favor of an IRS that can do as they please and ignore our rights. Otherwise, it's hard to fathom anyone with the slightest intelligence saying that "the IRS didn't go far enough".

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    I'm guessing that you are not aware of the abuses/violations committed by the IRS, or are in favor of an IRS that can do as they please and ignore our rights. Otherwise, it's hard to fathom anyone with the slightest intelligence saying that "the IRS didn't go far enough".
    What abuses? The problem was that the critera was biased, not that it was wrong. If anything these groups (and many others) should have received more scrutiny. The real abuse is by groups which file as 501(c)(4)s instead of non-profit 527s to avoid having to disclose their donors. This isn't just a conservative thing, the abuse is across the political spectrum.

    These are not social welfare groups. They are primarily political organizations.

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    A lot of conservatives have long insisted that racial profiling is just fine, and now they're all flipping their **** when they've become the target of profiling. It sure is amusing to watch!

    And before anyone tries to label me a hypocrite, no, I am definitely not defending these actions by the IRS. My other posts on the subject demonstrate this.
    So you equate terrorism to unfair tax breaks.

    OK.

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    What abuses? The problem was that the critera was biased, not that it was wrong. If anything these groups (and many others) should have received more scrutiny. The real abuse is by groups which file as 501(c)(4)s instead of non-profit 527s to avoid having to disclose their donors. This isn't just a conservative thing, the abuse is across the political spectrum.

    These are not social welfare groups. They are primarily political organizations.
    What abuses? How about targeting one group, the Tea Party? How about asking questions that have nothing to do with the request? Holding up the requests for over two years? Asking for political leanings, affiliations, who their donors are, if the donors have ever run for office, will they run for office in the future?

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    What abuses? The problem was that the critera was biased, not that it was wrong. If anything these groups (and many others) should have received more scrutiny. The real abuse is by groups which file as 501(c)(4)s instead of non-profit 527s to avoid having to disclose their donors. This isn't just a conservative thing, the abuse is across the political spectrum.

    These are not social welfare groups. They are primarily political organizations.
    They are social welfare groups, primarily engaged in promoting in some way the common good and general welfare of the community, as defined by the IRS. Why should anyone have to disclose donors to the IRS?

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    They are social welfare groups, primarily engaged in promoting in some way the common good and general welfare of the community, as defined by the IRS. Why should anyone have to disclose donors to the IRS?
    Um.....political organizations have to disclose their donors because historically anonymous campaign donations have led to widespread political corruption.

    Saying that a tea party group is primarily engaged in social welfare is intellectually dishonest. Sure, if you want to hire a great lawyer, and bend/break the rules you can certainly get approved. But these groups have more in common with moveon.org (a 527) than with the AARP, (an actual 501(c)(4).

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    What abuses? How about targeting one group, the Tea Party? How about asking questions that have nothing to do with the request? Holding up the requests for over two years? Asking for political leanings, affiliations, who their donors are, if the donors have ever run for office, will they run for office in the future?
    They didn't just target one group. There were 3400 applications per year, up from 1200 before citizens united. The increase in these groups were primarily political in nature and the majority were conservative groups. Of these 3400 per year, 300 total were subjected to additional questions and 75 of these were tea party groups.

    That said, some of the criteria that was used to make these determinations appears to be politically biased. If the wording was changed from groups with Tea Party in their name to groups with Party in their name, most of the scandal would go away.

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    What abuses? The problem was that the critera was biased, not that it was wrong. If anything these groups (and many others) should have received more scrutiny. The real abuse is by groups which file as 501(c)(4)s instead of non-profit 527s to avoid having to disclose their donors. This isn't just a conservative thing, the abuse is across the political spectrum.

    These are not social welfare groups. They are primarily political organizations.
    Abuses?

    The IRS provided the detailed information from these groups applying for tax exempt status to ProPublica. ProPublica, a liberal NON-PROFIT journalism association, would then use that information to write smearing attacks against these groups and their supporters. Those attacks were then picked up by mainstream media. What the IRS was doing was using it's power not only to subvert conservative organizations, they were also engaged in information laundering. Both are illegal as hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Um.....political organizations have to disclose their donors because historically anonymous campaign donations have led to widespread political corruption.

    Saying that a tea party group is primarily engaged in social welfare is intellectually dishonest. Sure, if you want to hire a great lawyer, and bend/break the rules you can certainly get approved. But these groups have more in common with moveon.org (a 527) than with the AARP, (an actual 501(c)(4).
    Its not dishonest at all. They meet the definition the IRS set forth. Perhaps your issue is with the label the IRS puts on it instead. Furthermore, disclosing donors leads to widespread political corruptions as seen by this story. The IRS agents are wanting orgs to expose their donors so they can harrass them. Which is why donors dont want to disclose. I see no reason why the IRS needs to know that I gave money to a private group who advocates for an issue.

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    Re: IRS officials in Washington were involved in targeting of conservative groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    Abuses?

    The IRS provided the detailed information from these groups applying for tax exempt status to ProPublica. ProPublica, a liberal NON-PROFIT journalism association, would then use that information to write smearing attacks against these groups and their supporters. Those attacks were then picked up by mainstream media. What the IRS was doing was using it's power not only to subvert conservative organizations, they were also engaged in information laundering. Both are illegal as hell.
    That is something completely different than the investigations.

    Even then, I have some sympathy for the IRS officials. We're dealing with a systematic effort to exploit the tax code so that buisnesses and CEOs can influence elections without their customers knowledge. This doesn't make any action taken by the handful of individuals responsible just, but it is certainly understandable.

    Each and every one of these groups could have filed as a tax excempt 527. It would have required far less paperwork and they would have been almost immediately approved. Instead they tried to game the system. The IRS officials tried to game them back. Neither was right.
    Last edited by Mithros; 05-15-13 at 02:49 PM.

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