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Thread: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    It does, so to speak. Equality before law, minority rights, and so forth are views of the population. If minorities constantly sought to get approval for equality by the masses, you would rarely get it. These matters usually require going above the people to improve the lives for Americans.
    It may just reflect how we fundamentally disagree on the issue. I do not view SSM as a minority rights issue. I do not believe that homosexuals are entitled to force the state to recognize their unions as legal marriage and as a social issue in which states set policy I think it's completely within the means of the state to allow the general population to vote on it and amend state constitutions. I do not believe it is unlawful discrimination to uphold traditional marriage and to not force changes to a new marriage definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    But that's the point. You wanted an amendment legalizing it, and one that banned it failed 6 months ago. Leaving the issue to the legislature to decide.
    I never said I wanted it, I just noted that I find it interesting how the states that legalize SSM do not do so on the constitutional level like most states that legalize/uphold traditional marriage do so. I've always supported a state's right to define marriage for their state. I don't like it though when that decision is made by politicians when that doesn't reflect popular opinion (which is what I feared here).

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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    That's fine. States should be able to do what they want. If MN wants to legalize SSM let them. If in the future people chose to change that they should be free to do so as well.
    States should be able to do what they want? Should states be able to ban inter-racial marriage? Afterall...states should be able to do what they want, right? Should states be allowed to say that marriage is restricted to those who can prove fertility? Should states be allowed to say that marriage is only between "Christians"?

    Or....should States only be able to do what they want when it comes to the limited category of same sex marriage?
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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    It may just reflect how we fundamentally disagree on the issue. I do not view SSM as a minority rights issue. I do not believe that homosexuals are entitled to force the state to recognize their unions as legal marriage and as a social issue in which states set policy I think it's completely within the means of the state to allow the general population to vote on it and amend state constitutions. I do not believe it is unlawful discrimination to uphold traditional marriage and to not force changes to a new marriage definition.
    It is within the state's purview to do such a thing. The trick is in making sure that you do not let the people get that opportunity. The more often that happens with minority matters, the better. Democracy is dangerous for the rights of the few.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    But it should at least reflect the views of the population. I'm fine with amendments and popular voting on issues as well.
    There are many issues in which government policies should not reflect the views of the population. Civil rights is most definately the most important aspect in which the majority should not be able to restict the rights of people. The majority should never be able to say that blue eyed people are not allowed to drive when all other people with non blue coloured eyes can.

    The tyranny of the majority can be horrrible issue in democratic states that do not have a strong legal system supporting civil rights. I would suggest that in Egypt the tyranny of the majority is going to be the biggest problem facing individual rights going foward.
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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    It is within the state's purview to do such a thing. The trick is in making sure that you do not let the people get that opportunity. The more often that happens with minority matters, the better. Democracy is dangerous for the rights of the few.
    Like the old saying "democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    It is within the state's purview to do such a thing. The trick is in making sure that you do not let the people get that opportunity. The more often that happens with minority matters, the better. Democracy is dangerous for the rights of the few.
    I think it's dangerous to remove people's rights to vote on issues or remove their representation and try and circumvent lawful changes to laws because politicians don't want that to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    States should be able to do what they want? Should states be able to ban inter-racial marriage? Afterall...states should be able to do what they want, right? Should states be allowed to say that marriage is restricted to those who can prove fertility? Should states be allowed to say that marriage is only between "Christians"?

    Or....should States only be able to do what they want when it comes to the limited category of same sex marriage?
    If I had a dollar for every time the "inter-racial marriage" straw man gets flung around I could probably donate enough to DP to keep it running for the year.

    Can't discriminate based on religion or race, it's lawful to define marriage as one man one woman nor is that unlawful gender discrimination to say a woman cannot be a husband or man a wife.

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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I think it's dangerous to remove people's rights to vote on issues or remove their representation and try and circumvent lawful changes to laws because politicians don't want that to happen.
    Your right to vote ought not extend to determining what rights I shall be granted, when the many cannot understand the needs of the few, or tends to disregard them entirely. One right is more necessary than the other.
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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Your right to vote ought not extend to determining what rights I shall be granted, when the many cannot understand the needs of the few, or disregard them entirely. One right is more necessary than the other.
    The word "rights" should not be tossed around so liberally. SSM is a policy issue typically addressing the legal definition of marriage. Unless the court or a state constitution rules otherwise there is no right for homosexuals or their supporters to force all states to redefine marriage or prevent people from democratically upholding their views. In my mind such oppression is tyranny. There is a right to vote, there is a legal framework for states to enact laws or amend their state constitutions. It is not unlawful to uphold traditional marriage and as such the right to vote should be preserved for the issue. The violation of rights comes in when people are barred from having their lawful opinions reflected in law or prevented from directly voting on the issue with all things being lawful.

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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The word "rights" should not be tossed around so liberally. SSM is a policy issue typically addressing the legal definition of marriage. Unless the court or a state constitution rules otherwise there is no right for homosexuals or their supporters to force all states to redefine marriage or prevent people from democratically upholding their views. In my mind such oppression is tyranny. There is a right to vote, there is a legal framework for states to enact laws or amend their state constitutions. It is not unlawful to uphold traditional marriage and as such the right to vote should be preserved for the issue. The violation of rights comes in when people are barred from having their lawful opinions reflected in law or prevented from directly voting on the issue with all things being lawful.
    It is hardly liberal when marriage comes with newly granted rights.

    Unless the court or a state constitution rules otherwise there is no right for homosexuals or their supporters to force all states to redefine marriage or prevent people from democratically upholding their views. In my mind such oppression is tyranny.
    The democrat's version of tyranny is the restraint from being able to use the mob to accomplish their ends of removing a minority's quality of life, whenever they please? How awful.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Minnesota Senate debating SSM bill

    And here they come, the tolerant liberals..


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