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Thread: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Ahh, I see what you were saying. I agree, there was fraud before citizens united. However, we're talking about IRS actions which occured in the aftermath of Citizens United.

    501/503(c)(4) groups have certainly been around for a while. The AARP, and NRA are both 501c4 groups. They can be engaged in issue advocacy, but not candidate advocacy.

    What Republicans did after 2010 was entirely different. They paired Super-Pacs which have to disclose their donors with 501c4 organizations which did not. Someone would create a 503c4 group with some incantation of Tea Party etc... This would allow billionairs to donate money to the non-profits. The non-profits could then donate that money to 527's. So, the purpose of the 503c4 group was in fact to act as a disclosure shelter, and not as an issue advocacy group.

    Dozens of other GOP-allied 501(c)(4) groups — and a smaller number of Democratic ones — are on spending sprees fueled by donor secrecy and the Supreme Court’s historic Citizens United vs. FEC decision last year. That ruling gave the green light to corporations, unions and individuals making unlimited contributions for ads and other political tools that back specific candidates, provided there is no coordination with campaigns or party committees.


    In 2010, GOP-leaning 501(c)(4) groups accounted for almost $74 million of the $89 million reported to the FEC, according to CRP.

    So we have conservative groups spending 83% of the total 501c4 expenditures. Clearly they're the biggest culprits.

    That said, profiling conservative groups is un-American, and should not be done.

    Obviously, you like to take your Huffington Post/Center for Public Integrity reports with a different flavor of toast than the majority of people.

    As I pointed out in my earlier post to you, do some research on what is going on behind the scenes with the Progressive Machine. Myopic views appearing in leftist news articles, or from lefist "research" groups only excite the audience they are designed to attract.

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Here's the deal, Pete. It is abuse if they are targeting some groups, and not doing their investigations on all groups equally. Richard Nixon was notorious for using the IRS to target left wing groups in the late 1960's and early 70's. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. But I suspect that some on the left will ignore what is going on, just as the right wing ignored what was happening to left wing groups under Nixon. And this IS the problem. There are some on the far left who I see as idiots, just as there are some on the far right who I see as idiots. But, if we let the government attack those groups, under any precept, then we allow an attack on America itself. We need to defend those we disagree with, as well as those whose philosophies we subcribe to, lest sometime in the future we ALL lose liberty.

    The above was well stated by the patriot who said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". NOTE: Not the exact wording (I can't remember it exactly), but the thought matches the phrase.

    So, today, I am a rabid right winger. Tomorrow, if the same kinds of IRS attacks happen against the left, I will be a rabid left winger for that day. That's because I am a rabid American EVERY DAY. LOL.
    I understand you fully and I agree.

    But this is fake outrage... and you know it. The right have finally gotten something on the IRS and are going full throttle on it. But when it comes to abuses of power by the right themselves... oh that is not a problem.

    At least in this case, the abuse of power if any, was some what warranted. There was a hell of a lot of Tea Party linked organisations popping up and considering that even some of the Tea Party top had criminal backgrounds... for fraud, then what do you expect? "Oh this is a right wing organisation... that must mean they are totally legit, despite the leader being a convicted check bouncer or fraudster.. nothing wrong there and no need to look into it." Sorry but there is and on that issue I fully support the IRS in doing their freaking jobs for once. Now if they would also do it against big companies and the wealthy... then we might be getting some where.

    Now on the more general abuse of power by a sitting administration... Iraq war scandal under Bush (what is to now? 10 billion dollars+ missing?), AG scandal under Bush, Katrina under Bush, Iran Contra under Reagan and so on and so on. Where were the exact same people who are now complaining over the IRS vs Tea Party when all this happened? Oh yea defending the abusers most likely.

    What I fear, is that this case turns into the terror report case a few years ago, where the right managed to push off the administration in investigating right wing terror groups in the US, because of a report ordered by Bush happened to come out under Obama and pointed a lot of fingers to a major problem in America with right wing extremism. After this the IRS could stop looking into political and religious organisations for tax fraud, and that is a very bad thing.
    PeteEU

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Honestly, I'm completely baffled that anyone would be OK with this or try to defend it. Don't be so enslaved by your ideology that you justify the anti-American practice of trying to silence or disadvantage groups by the government because the government or those in the government do not like the ideology. This is wrong, and it doesn't matter what happened in the past, that excuses nothing.

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Obviously, you like to take your Huffington Post/Center for Public Integrity reports with a different flavor of toast than the majority of people.

    As I pointed out in my earlier post to you, do some research on what is going on behind the scenes with the Progressive Machine. Myopic views appearing in leftist news articles, or from lefist "research" groups only excite the audience they are designed to attract.
    FYI, simply saying "do your research" may be a convienient way to turn the conversation, but does nothing to convince me. If anything it makes your position look weaker and more ill informed.

    And I have done research. I find google to be a powerful tool, particularly in date limited searches. I looked for articles around 2010 relating to 501c4 groups.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct...paign-20101021

    Here we see that GOPs were the biggest filers, and a big push for the IRS to crack down on what amounts to political money laundering. (Ie groups existing for the sole purpose of influencing elections without having to disclose their donors)

    It is VERY obvious that this was a concerted Republican strategy, especially in 2010, 2011. Approaching the 2012 election, the filings were more balanced.

    Crossroads GPS is a 501c4 group. I find it hard to make the case that it is a social welfare organization who's primary purpose is *not* political. (The same case can be made for some liberal leaning 503c4 groups).

    Agents processing 501c4 applications were suddenly bombarded with groups that had patriot, or tea party in their names. So they did what came natural, they gave those groups greater scrutiny. While I can understand the attraction to profiling, it is un-American and we need to both investigate what happened, and fix the mess of 501c4 groups.

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Obviously, you like to take your Huffington Post/Center for Public Integrity reports with a different flavor of toast than the majority of people.

    As I pointed out in my earlier post to you, do some research on what is going on behind the scenes with the Progressive Machine. Myopic views appearing in leftist news articles, or from lefist "research" groups only excite the audience they are designed to attract.
    FYI, simply saying "do your research" may be a convienient way to turn the conversation, but does nothing to convince me. If anything it makes your position look weaker and more ill informed.

    And I have done research. I find google to be a powerful tool, particularly in date limited searches. I looked for articles around 2010 relating to 501c4 groups.
    Republicans' secret formula ? 501(c)(4) - Los Angeles Times

    Here we see that GOPs were the biggest filers, and a big push for the IRS to crack down on what amounts to political money laundering. (Ie groups existing for the sole purpose of influencing elections without having to disclose their donors)

    It is VERY obvious that this was a concerted Republican strategy, especially in 2010, 2011. Approaching the 2012 election, the filings were more balanced.

    Crossroads GPS is a 501c4 group. I find it hard to make the case that it is a social welfare organization who's primary purpose is *not* political. (The same case can be made for some liberal leaning 503c4 groups).

    Agents processing 501c4 applications were suddenly bombarded with groups that had patriot, or tea party in their names. So they did what came natural, they gave those groups greater scrutiny. While I can understand the attraction to profiling, it is un-American and we need to both investigate what happened, and fix the mess of 501c4 groups.
    Last edited by Mithros; 05-13-13 at 02:12 PM. Reason: duplicate

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Honestly, I'm completely baffled that anyone would be OK with this or try to defend it. Don't be so enslaved by your ideology that you justify the anti-American practice of trying to silence or disadvantage groups by the government because the government or those in the government do not like the ideology. This is wrong, and it doesn't matter what happened in the past, that excuses nothing.
    Yes, it seems like those on the left are okay with the IRS abusing their authority, as long as it is the Tea Party that they are doing it to. Let me ask those that think what they did is okay, how about if they started asking questions about who they knew? What are the political views of yourselves or the people you know?

    Are those kind of questions okay? You know, like Senator McCarthy was asking in the 50's?

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    FYI, simply saying "do your research" may be a convienient way to turn the conversation, but does nothing to convince me. If anything it makes your position look weaker and more ill informed.

    And I have done research. I find google to be a powerful tool, particularly in date limited searches. I looked for articles around 2010 relating to 501c4 groups.
    Republicans' secret formula ? 501(c)(4) - Los Angeles Times

    Here we see that GOPs were the biggest filers, and a big push for the IRS to crack down on what amounts to political money laundering. (Ie groups existing for the sole purpose of influencing elections without having to disclose their donors)

    It is VERY obvious that this was a concerted Republican strategy, especially in 2010, 2011. Approaching the 2012 election, the filings were more balanced.

    Crossroads GPS is a 501c4 group. I find it hard to make the case that it is a social welfare organization who's primary purpose is *not* political. (The same case can be made for some liberal leaning 503c4 groups).

    Agents processing 501c4 applications were suddenly bombarded with groups that had patriot, or tea party in their names. So they did what came natural, they gave those groups greater scrutiny. While I can understand the attraction to profiling, it is un-American and we need to both investigate what happened, and fix the mess of 501c4 groups.
    Well let's see. You've posted information from your google seaches that have resulted in Huffington Post articles, a leftist organization, and The Center for Public Integrity, a far left progressive "research" group funded by George Soros and others in the Progressive Machine. And now you've posted more information from the Los Angeles Times, a failing far left newpaper.

    Question, how much has been spent on "social programs" designed to elect liberal/progressive candidates, and push a liberal/progressive agenda by previously identified groups like the Annennburg Trust, the Ford Foundation, the Tides Foundation, the James L. Knight Foudation, the Pew Charitable Trust, Open Society Institute, etc.? All of these groups have long established 501c3 status.

    What you're not recognizing is that by using time limiting searches, your excluding the billions spent by far left liberal/progressive 501c3 groups. These groups were already set up. It can be shown that even today, Republicans are trying to catch up in the 501c3 arena.

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Well let's see. You've posted information from your google seaches that have resulted in Huffington Post articles, a leftist organization, and The Center for Public Integrity, a far left progressive "research" group funded by George Soros and others in the Progressive Machine. And now you've posted more information from the Los Angeles Times, a failing far left newpaper.

    Question, how much has been spent on "social programs" designed to elect liberal/progressive candidates, and push a liberal/progressive agenda by previously identified groups like the Annennburg Trust, the Ford Foundation, the Tides Foundation, the James L. Knight Foudation, the Pew Charitable Trust, Open Society Institute, etc.? All of these groups have long established 501c3 status.

    What you're not recognizing is that by using time limiting searches, your excluding the billions spent by far left liberal/progressive 501c3 groups. These groups were already set up. It can be shown that even today, Republicans are trying to catch up in the 501c3 arena.
    I really don't see your point. I understand why the targeting of conservative groups would be upsetting, frankly I'm upset by it as well. But the rest seems like an willful ignorance to reality.

    I have repeatedly said that left wing groups engaged in the same behaviour, but to a lesser extent. In 2010, 83% of the 501(c)(4) political expenditures came from Republican affiliated groups.

    Look, these groups are engaged in what is essentially money laundering for political contributions. The IRS rightly tried to crack down on it, and I applaud their investigation into 300 of these potentially fraudulent groups. However, they should not have specifically targeted the 75 conservative groups which were targeted solely because they were conservative groups.

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I understand you fully and I agree.

    But this is fake outrage... and you know it. The right have finally gotten something on the IRS and are going full throttle on it. But when it comes to abuses of power by the right themselves... oh that is not a problem.

    At least in this case, the abuse of power if any, was some what warranted. There was a hell of a lot of Tea Party linked organisations popping up and considering that even some of the Tea Party top had criminal backgrounds... for fraud, then what do you expect? "Oh this is a right wing organisation... that must mean they are totally legit, despite the leader being a convicted check bouncer or fraudster.. nothing wrong there and no need to look into it." Sorry but there is and on that issue I fully support the IRS in doing their freaking jobs for once. Now if they would also do it against big companies and the wealthy... then we might be getting some where.

    Now on the more general abuse of power by a sitting administration... Iraq war scandal under Bush (what is to now? 10 billion dollars+ missing?), AG scandal under Bush, Katrina under Bush, Iran Contra under Reagan and so on and so on. Where were the exact same people who are now complaining over the IRS vs Tea Party when all this happened? Oh yea defending the abusers most likely.

    What I fear, is that this case turns into the terror report case a few years ago, where the right managed to push off the administration in investigating right wing terror groups in the US, because of a report ordered by Bush happened to come out under Obama and pointed a lot of fingers to a major problem in America with right wing extremism. After this the IRS could stop looking into political and religious organisations for tax fraud, and that is a very bad thing.
    If YOU are the one who is being targeted, would YOU be faking outrage? I didn't think so, I don't give a damn if the guys being targeted are astroturfers, extremists, or what have you. It is human nature. The outrage is real, unless you live in a cartoon world.
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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I really don't see your point. I understand why the targeting of conservative groups would be upsetting, frankly I'm upset by it as well. But the rest seems like an willful ignorance to reality.

    I have repeatedly said that left wing groups engaged in the same behaviour, but to a lesser extent. In 2010, 83% of the 501(c)(4) political expenditures came from Republican affiliated groups.

    Look, these groups are engaged in what is essentially money laundering for political contributions. The IRS rightly tried to crack down on it, and I applaud their investigation into 300 of these potentially fraudulent groups. However, they should not have specifically targeted the 75 conservative groups which were targeted solely because they were conservative groups.
    My point is this. Taking the figures you found in the leftist news articles and reports on face value, the fact the majority of applications seen shortly after the Citizens United decision were affiliated with Republican groups does not by itself mean they were entering in an attempt to get into some tax fraud,money laundering thing.

    It seems quite obvious they were looking to organize to counter the billions that had already been spent through the shadow operations of the Progressive Machine. That's billions. That's not a lesser extent.

    For example, Annenberg has been invited into our nations classrooms via their Annenberg Learner program, which pushes a Progressive agenda as a foundation to support Progressive ideology and the candidates who support it. Why don't you read their annual report and then comment about "lesser" extents?

    Annenberg Foundation | Financial Information

    The Tides Foundation pushes their agenda and funds liberal/progressive candidates and legislation protected from taxes by 501c3 status as well, along with outfits like the Ford Foundation, and the MacArther Foundation.

    Lesser extent? That's laughable.

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