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Thread: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    No.

    First of all they were relatively new and they have to be "vetted" in my opinion. Any new organisation that wants tax exemption should not only be vetted but put under the microscope at the start to make sure that it is actually meeting the requirements. I would wager that the IRS under Bush and Reagan did exactly the same thing with all the "liberal" groups. We do know that Bush liked to politicize government agencies and groups for his own political gain... the AG scandal for example.. or the hiring scandals, or Boeing scandal and so on.

    Secondly, considering that some of the people involved in the Tea Party groups across the lands, also have criminal records for fraud.. then I would expect the IRS to check that these groups are just not another fraud.

    And for the record I would expect that the IRS did this for any organisation regardless of the political or religious leaning. Getting tax exemption should be a privilege they earn, and not one that is automatically granted just because they call them-self a religious or political group.
    Wow, a tremendous abuse of power by the IRS, and you are okay with that. Incedible.
    Last edited by Anthony60; 05-13-13 at 11:16 AM.

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    Wow, a tremendous abuse of power by the IRS, and you are okay with that. Incedible.
    Never said I was okay with "abuse of power" by the IRS... I just dont see any real abuse since they were doing their jobs. All I am doing is following the GOP mantra from the Bush years when the left accused them of abuse of power.
    PeteEU

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Never said I was okay with "abuse of power" by the IRS... I just dont see any real abuse since they were doing their jobs. All I am doing is following the GOP mantra from the Bush years when the left accused them of abuse of power.
    Here's the deal, Pete. It is abuse if they are targeting some groups, and not doing their investigations on all groups equally. Richard Nixon was notorious for using the IRS to target left wing groups in the late 1960's and early 70's. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. But I suspect that some on the left will ignore what is going on, just as the right wing ignored what was happening to left wing groups under Nixon. And this IS the problem. There are some on the far left who I see as idiots, just as there are some on the far right who I see as idiots. But, if we let the government attack those groups, under any precept, then we allow an attack on America itself. We need to defend those we disagree with, as well as those whose philosophies we subcribe to, lest sometime in the future we ALL lose liberty.

    The above was well stated by the patriot who said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". NOTE: Not the exact wording (I can't remember it exactly), but the thought matches the phrase.

    So, today, I am a rabid right winger. Tomorrow, if the same kinds of IRS attacks happen against the left, I will be a rabid left winger for that day. That's because I am a rabid American EVERY DAY. LOL.
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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Here's the deal, Pete. It is abuse if they are targeting some groups, and not doing their investigations on all groups equally. Richard Nixon was notorious for using the IRS to target left wing groups in the late 1960's and early 70's. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. But I suspect that some on the left will ignore what is going on, just as the right wing ignored what was happening to left wing groups under Nixon. And this IS the problem. There are some on the far left who I see as idiots, just as there are some on the far right who I see as idiots. But, if we let the government attack those groups, under any precept, then we allow an attack on America itself. We need to defend those we disagree with, as well as those whose philosophies we subcribe to, lest sometime in the future we ALL lose liberty.

    The above was well stated by the patriot who said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". NOTE: Not the exact wording (I can't remember it exactly), but the thought matches the phrase.

    So, today, I am a rabid right winger. Tomorrow, if the same kinds of IRS attacks happen against the left, I will be a rabid left winger for that day. That's because I am a rabid American EVERY DAY. LOL.
    What we see here is the problem with profiling and why it's wrong in a free country.

    After Citizens United, there was a huge push, predominantly by Republicans, to form 503(c)(4) groups in order to take advantage of the new loopholes. These groups are allowed to engage in issue and candidate advocacy, but that cannot be their primary motivation. Their primary goal must be social welfare, not politics.

    This means that we have some individuals, predominantly Republican leaning groups using names like Tea Party, Patriots, etc... engaging in what is essentially tax fraud. To an extent, it's understandable that IRS agents would give greater scrutiny to these groups because these are the groups that were breaking the rules.

    HOWEVER, this is not the way America works. You are not considered guilty just because someone who looks like you, thinks like you, dresses like you, or acts like you is also guilty. All 503(c)(4) groups should receive the same scruitny. Period.
    Last edited by Mithros; 05-13-13 at 12:53 PM.

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    What we see here is the problem with profiling and why it's wrong in a free country.

    After Citizens United, there was a huge push, predominantly by Republicans, to form 503(c)(4) groups in order to take advantage of the new loopholes. These groups are allowed to engage in issue and candidate advocacy, but that cannot be their primary motivation. Their primary goal must be social welfare, not politics.

    This means that we have some individuals, predominantly Republican leaning groups using names like Tea Party, Patriots, etc... engaging in what is essentially tax fraud. To an extent, it's understandable that IRS agents would give greater scrutiny to these groups because these are the groups that were breaking the rules.

    HOWEVER, this is not the way America works. You are not considered guilty just because someone who looks like you, thinks like you, dresses like you, or acts like you is also guilty. All 503(c)(4) groups should recieve the same scruitny. Period.
    Sorry, but you have your timeline completely out of wack.

    Citizen United, and any push for these groups stemmed from the billions channeled through liberal/progressive groups like Annennberg, Tides, Ford, and others. These groups were coodinated by the founders of the Democracy Alliance which was formed back in 2005. This is where the very evil George Soros surfaced.

    Start here and do some research on your own.

    Democracy Alliance

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Sorry, but you have your timeline completely out of wack.

    Citizen United, and any push for these groups stemmed from the billions channeled through liberal/progressive groups like Annennberg, Tides, Ford, and others. These groups were coodinated by the founders of the Democracy Alliance which was formed back in 2005. This is where the very evil George Soros surfaced.

    Start here and do some research on your own.

    Democracy Alliance
    HUH???? You'll forgive me if this sounds a bit like a mindless rant. I'm just not getting your point.

    Citizens United is a conservative group.
    Citizens United (organization) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Citizens United vs US was issued in January 2010
    Timeline: Events in U.S. IRS 'Tea Party' scrutiny scandal

    From the article.
    2010. Tax-exempt "social welfare" groups organized under Section 501(c)(4) of the U.S. tax code become an increasingly popular conduit for increased spending on both ends of the political spectrum, but especially by conservatives.

    Look, it's not a political statement to say that Republicans were the biggest culprits when it came to illegal and potentially illegal 503(c)(4) groups. That's reality.

    That said. PROFILING GOP groups just because they're more likely to be fraudulant is 100% un-American. While I can understand the motivation of an agent acting like this, it does not make it acceptable. Unlike Fast and Furious, or Bengazi, this is a real scandal. We need to fix it, and the campaign finance laws which allow it. (Because honestly, none of these groups should be tax excempt)

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    HUH???? You'll forgive me if this sounds a bit like a mindless rant. I'm just not getting your point.

    Citizens United is a conservative group.
    Citizens United (organization) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Citizens United vs US was issued in January 2010
    Timeline: Events in U.S. IRS 'Tea Party' scrutiny scandal

    From the article.
    2010. Tax-exempt "social welfare" groups organized under Section 501(c)(4) of the U.S. tax code become an increasingly popular conduit for increased spending on both ends of the political spectrum, but especially by conservatives.

    Look, it's not a political statement to say that Republicans were the biggest culprits when it came to illegal and potentially illegal 503(c)(4) groups. That's reality.

    That said. PROFILING GOP groups just because they're more likely to be fraudulant is 100% un-American. While I can understand the motivation of an agent acting like this, it does not make it acceptable. Unlike Fast and Furious, or Bengazi, this is a real scandal. We need to fix it, and the campaign finance laws which allow it. (Because honestly, none of these groups should be tax excempt)
    You wrote "after Citizen United, there was a huge push". Fact, the loopholes were being exploited long before Citizens United came along.

    For example, Media Maters, a 501c3, was started in 2004, receiving money from George Soros and members of his secretive Progressive Machine. It's outrageous this Progressive outfit has been allowed to maintain it's tax exempt status, however, it soldiers on, while the mention of "teaching the Constitution" is enough fodder to get the storm troops from the IRS marching through the front doors of organizations.

    And no it's not reality to say Republicans were the biggest culprits. Thats your reality, which you seem to be comfortable proving has no basis in fact.

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Never said I was okay with "abuse of power" by the IRS... I just dont see any real abuse since they were doing their jobs. All I am doing is following the GOP mantra from the Bush years when the left accused them of abuse of power.
    If you are not keeping up with current events, even Obama has strongly denounnced their actions. Still think what they were doing is okay? You think Obama is wrong on this and should support them, or be indifferent?

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    Re: AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    You wrote "after Citizen United, there was a huge push". Fact, the loopholes were being exploited long before Citizens United came along.

    For example, Media Maters, a 501c3, was started in 2004, receiving money from George Soros and members of his secretive Progressive Machine. It's outrageous this Progressive outfit has been allowed to maintain it's tax exempt status, however, it soldiers on, while the mention of "teaching the Constitution" is enough fodder to get the storm troops from the IRS marching through the front doors of organizations.

    And no it's not reality to say Republicans were the biggest culprits. Thats your reality, which you seem to be comfortable proving has no basis in fact.
    Ahh, I see what you were saying. I agree, there was fraud before citizens united. However, we're talking about IRS actions which occured in the aftermath of Citizens United.

    501/503(c)(4) groups have certainly been around for a while. The AARP, and NRA are both 501c4 groups. They can be engaged in issue advocacy, but not candidate advocacy.

    What Republicans did after 2010 was entirely different. They paired Super-Pacs which have to disclose their donors with 501c4 organizations which did not. Someone would create a 503c4 group with some incantation of Tea Party etc... This would allow billionairs to donate money to the non-profits. The non-profits could then donate that money to 527's. So, the purpose of the 503c4 group was in fact to act as a disclosure shelter, and not as an issue advocacy group.

    Dozens of other GOP-allied 501(c)(4) groups — and a smaller number of Democratic ones — are on spending sprees fueled by donor secrecy and the Supreme Court’s historic Citizens United vs. FEC decision last year. That ruling gave the green light to corporations, unions and individuals making unlimited contributions for ads and other political tools that back specific candidates, provided there is no coordination with campaigns or party committees.


    In 2010, GOP-leaning 501(c)(4) groups accounted for almost $74 million of the $89 million reported to the FEC, according to CRP.

    So we have conservative groups spending 83% of the total 501c4 expenditures. Clearly they're the biggest culprits.

    That said, profiling conservative groups is un-American, and should not be done.

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