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AP Exclusive: IRS knew tea party targeted in 2011

notquiteright said:
I believe the slush fund will be investigated right along with the Koch Brothers slush funds. ;)

I know the right wing is all a-twitter over this but given the huge increase in 'chapters' and the very fast and loose way many were run I can see the logic of checking for compliance.

tell ya what, when the liberals sprout a hundred or so astro-turf groups the IRS should investigate their compliance as well.... :peace
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Koch Brothers don't have a slush fund. They donate to their orgs and it's those orgs who are audited. You as an individual can give any amount of money you want to a org. While an org is limited in how much it can give and how it can give based on it's status. See the difference?

Btw, Koch Brothers are no different then George Soros. :cool:

It's not just the "right wing" in an up roar over this.. senior Democrats and "liberal" Republicans in Congress have issues with it, you know Diane Feinstein, and Susan Collins.

Liberals sprouted hundreds of astro-turf groups as well. Happened in the late '90s and during the Healthcare debate.

My point in this is pretty simple... if you are gonna look into 501 (c)(4)s then set the rules on what is primary political means. It's assumed by all 501 (c)(4)s that anything over 49% is primary political. IRS doesn't say what is or isn't. So IRS can't specifically look at ANY group based on what is spent since it hasn't defined it. On top of that every big group out there has a 501 (c)(4). Be it Moveon.org or Heritage Foundation. But the IRS specifically targeted groups with the titles of "Tea Party", "Patriots" and "9/12"..

The IRS sent letters demanding information outside of the scope of determining if it was a 501 (c)(4).

http://c0391070.cdn2.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/pdf/irs-questions-aclj-tea-party-clients.pdf

So don't give me this it's just Republican and Libertarians bitching.. you should be bitching too. I will always be against this kind of abuse by Government, be it a Republican or a Democrat doing it. It's why I don't trust Government.. Yet you are so blinded by your politics you don't even realize if you don't nip it in the bud today.. tomorrow it will be 1000 times worse.
 
austrianecon said:
Koch Brothers don't have a slush fund. They donate to their orgs and it's those orgs who are audited. You as an individual can give any amount of money you want to a org. While an org is limited in how much it can give and how it can give based on it's status. See the difference?

Btw, Koch Brothers are no different then George Soros. :cool:

It's not just the "right wing" in an up roar over this.. senior Democrats and "liberal" Republicans in Congress have issues with it, you know Diane Feinstein, and Susan Collins.

Liberals sprouted hundreds of astro-turf groups as well. Happened in the late '90s and during the Healthcare debate.

My point in this is pretty simple... if you are gonna look into 501 (c)(4)s then set the rules on what is primary political means. It's assumed by all 501 (c)(4)s that anything over 49% is primary political. IRS doesn't say what is or isn't. So IRS can't specifically look at ANY group based on what is spent since it hasn't defined it. On top of that every big group out there has a 501 (c)(4). Be it Moveon.org or Heritage Foundation. But the IRS specifically targeted groups with the titles of "Tea Party", "Patriots" and "9/12"..

The IRS sent letters demanding information outside of the scope of determining if it was a 501 (c)(4).

http://c0391070.cdn2.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/pdf/irs-questions-aclj-tea-party-clients.pdf

So don't give me this it's just Republican and Libertarians bitching.. you should be bitching too. I will always be against this kind of abuse by Government, be it a Republican or a Democrat doing it. It's why I don't trust Government.. Yet you are so blinded by your politics you don't even realize if you don't nip it in the bud today.. tomorrow it will be 1000 times worse.
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Everyone with that kind of money has a slush fund.
 
austrianecon said:
Koch Brothers don't have a slush fund. They donate to their orgs and it's those orgs who are audited. You as an individual can give any amount of money you want to a org. While an org is limited in how much it can give and how it can give based on it's status. See the difference? Btw, Koch Brothers are no different then George Soros. :cool: It's not just the "right wing" in an up roar over this.. senior Democrats and "liberal" Republicans in Congress have issues with it, you know Diane Feinstein, and Susan Collins. Liberals sprouted hundreds of astro-turf groups as well. Happened in the late '90s and during the Healthcare debate. My point in this is pretty simple... if you are gonna look into 501 (c)(4)s then set the rules on what is primary political means. It's assumed by all 501 (c)(4)s that anything over 49% is primary political. IRS doesn't say what is or isn't. So IRS can't specifically look at ANY group based on what is spent since it hasn't defined it. On top of that every big group out there has a 501 (c)(4). Be it Moveon.org or Heritage Foundation. But the IRS specifically targeted groups with the titles of "Tea Party", "Patriots" and "9/12".. The IRS sent letters demanding information outside of the scope of determining if it was a 501 (c)(http://c0391070.cdn2.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/pdf/irs-questions-aclj-tea-party-clients.pdf So don't give me this it's just Republican and Libertarians bitching.. you should be bitching too. I will always be against this kind of abuse by Government, be it a Republican or a Democrat doing it. It's why I don't trust Government.. Yet you are so blinded by your politics you don't even realize if you don't nip it in the bud today.. tomorrow it will be 1000 times worse.[/QUOTE/]

Actually we have little knowledge of what Koch brothers have as slush funds anymore than we do of Union slush funds. But the right loves to say there are. I saw The sunday talk shows I didn't see an uproar but then again I am not a right wing leaner. Funny we go from Union slush funds to comparing Koch to Soros, not a convincing argument... 'they do it too!' :roll:

Many groups can be very ahhh discrete on who gave how much, super pacs are fun things they can accept money as a 501(c)[4] from non profits and not have to disclose who donated what. the non Profit as like a money launderer.

The astroturf label sticks because it is true, take FreedomWorks. Half it's 2012 haul came from one man, Richard Stephenson. 94% came from big gift donors and by using the non profit many names can be hidden.

The problem as many see it is by using the non profit tax sheild astro turf organizations can effectively hide who gives how much and is the organization a true grass roots or astro-turf outfit.

When it comes to bud nipping the GOP fillibustered the attempt to reform 'dark money'. Astro-turf is safe for now....
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And we're supposed to trust this agency to implement Obamacare. Oy.
 
Blood-sucking vampires. And now shown to be available for hire, and you know what that makes them. :(
 
Josie said:
And we're supposed to trust this agency to implement Obamacare. Oy.
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What? The IRS is not "implementing Obamacare."

They will collect the tax penalty from those who do not possess adequate insurance. What other involvement do you think they have?
 
Deuce said:
What? The IRS is not "implementing Obamacare."

They will collect the tax penalty from those who do not possess adequate insurance. What other involvement do you think they have?
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They enforce it, by ensuring that you have a qualifying health plan. So yes, you are supposed to trust them that your plan is "qualifying".

Maybe they will start "random" audits of people that complain in public about the ACA......
 
PeteEU said:
So it is bad when the IRS is used as a political tool, but when the military and Justice departments are used as political tools, then it is not a problem?
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Nope, you're right here....Obama is using all three as political tools, or weapons against freedom if you wish....Thanks for pointing that out.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
If you close the IRS then who will collect the taxes?
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I'll volunteer. I'll do it for free. You're first up. Send me your taxes. Thanks. Or, we could let the businesses that currently perform that function continue to do so. The IRS gets involved when it comes to confiscation, abuse, and intimidation. That's their strong suit. If you read their prospectus for employment, they're just looking for a few good thugs. And, as a bonus, they can be bought.
 
 
PeteEU said:
No.

First of all they were relatively new and they have to be "vetted" in my opinion. Any new organisation that wants tax exemption should not only be vetted but put under the microscope at the start to make sure that it is actually meeting the requirements. I would wager that the IRS under Bush and Reagan did exactly the same thing with all the "liberal" groups. We do know that Bush liked to politicize government agencies and groups for his own political gain... the AG scandal for example.. or the hiring scandals, or Boeing scandal and so on.

Secondly, considering that some of the people involved in the Tea Party groups across the lands, also have criminal records for fraud.. then I would expect the IRS to check that these groups are just not another fraud.

And for the record I would expect that the IRS did this for any organisation regardless of the political or religious leaning. Getting tax exemption should be a privilege they earn, and not one that is automatically granted just because they call them-self a religious or political group.
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Wow, a tremendous abuse of power by the IRS, and you are okay with that. Incedible.
 
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Anthony60 said:
Wow, a tremendous abuse of power by the IRS, and you are okay with that. Incedible.
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Never said I was okay with "abuse of power" by the IRS... I just dont see any real abuse since they were doing their jobs. All I am doing is following the GOP mantra from the Bush years when the left accused them of abuse of power.
 
PeteEU said:
Never said I was okay with "abuse of power" by the IRS... I just dont see any real abuse since they were doing their jobs. All I am doing is following the GOP mantra from the Bush years when the left accused them of abuse of power.
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Here's the deal, Pete. It is abuse if they are targeting some groups, and not doing their investigations on all groups equally. Richard Nixon was notorious for using the IRS to target left wing groups in the late 1960's and early 70's. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. But I suspect that some on the left will ignore what is going on, just as the right wing ignored what was happening to left wing groups under Nixon. And this IS the problem. There are some on the far left who I see as idiots, just as there are some on the far right who I see as idiots. But, if we let the government attack those groups, under any precept, then we allow an attack on America itself. We need to defend those we disagree with, as well as those whose philosophies we subcribe to, lest sometime in the future we ALL lose liberty.

The above was well stated by the patriot who said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". NOTE: Not the exact wording (I can't remember it exactly), but the thought matches the phrase.

So, today, I am a rabid right winger. Tomorrow, if the same kinds of IRS attacks happen against the left, I will be a rabid left winger for that day. That's because I am a rabid American EVERY DAY. LOL.
 
danarhea said:
Here's the deal, Pete. It is abuse if they are targeting some groups, and not doing their investigations on all groups equally. Richard Nixon was notorious for using the IRS to target left wing groups in the late 1960's and early 70's. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. But I suspect that some on the left will ignore what is going on, just as the right wing ignored what was happening to left wing groups under Nixon. And this IS the problem. There are some on the far left who I see as idiots, just as there are some on the far right who I see as idiots. But, if we let the government attack those groups, under any precept, then we allow an attack on America itself. We need to defend those we disagree with, as well as those whose philosophies we subcribe to, lest sometime in the future we ALL lose liberty.

The above was well stated by the patriot who said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". NOTE: Not the exact wording (I can't remember it exactly), but the thought matches the phrase.

So, today, I am a rabid right winger. Tomorrow, if the same kinds of IRS attacks happen against the left, I will be a rabid left winger for that day. That's because I am a rabid American EVERY DAY. LOL.
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What we see here is the problem with profiling and why it's wrong in a free country.

After Citizens United, there was a huge push, predominantly by Republicans, to form 503(c)(4) groups in order to take advantage of the new loopholes. These groups are allowed to engage in issue and candidate advocacy, but that cannot be their primary motivation. Their primary goal must be social welfare, not politics.

This means that we have some individuals, predominantly Republican leaning groups using names like Tea Party, Patriots, etc... engaging in what is essentially tax fraud. To an extent, it's understandable that IRS agents would give greater scrutiny to these groups because these are the groups that were breaking the rules.

HOWEVER, this is not the way America works. You are not considered guilty just because someone who looks like you, thinks like you, dresses like you, or acts like you is also guilty. All 503(c)(4) groups should receive the same scruitny. Period.
 
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Mithros said:
What we see here is the problem with profiling and why it's wrong in a free country.

After Citizens United, there was a huge push, predominantly by Republicans, to form 503(c)(4) groups in order to take advantage of the new loopholes. These groups are allowed to engage in issue and candidate advocacy, but that cannot be their primary motivation. Their primary goal must be social welfare, not politics.

This means that we have some individuals, predominantly Republican leaning groups using names like Tea Party, Patriots, etc... engaging in what is essentially tax fraud. To an extent, it's understandable that IRS agents would give greater scrutiny to these groups because these are the groups that were breaking the rules.

HOWEVER, this is not the way America works. You are not considered guilty just because someone who looks like you, thinks like you, dresses like you, or acts like you is also guilty. All 503(c)(4) groups should recieve the same scruitny. Period.
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Sorry, but you have your timeline completely out of wack.

Citizen United, and any push for these groups stemmed from the billions channeled through liberal/progressive groups like Annennberg, Tides, Ford, and others. These groups were coodinated by the founders of the Democracy Alliance which was formed back in 2005. This is where the very evil George Soros surfaced.

Start here and do some research on your own.

Democracy Alliance
 
ocean515 said:
Sorry, but you have your timeline completely out of wack.

Citizen United, and any push for these groups stemmed from the billions channeled through liberal/progressive groups like Annennberg, Tides, Ford, and others. These groups were coodinated by the founders of the Democracy Alliance which was formed back in 2005. This is where the very evil George Soros surfaced.

Start here and do some research on your own.

Democracy Alliance
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HUH???? You'll forgive me if this sounds a bit like a mindless rant. I'm just not getting your point.

Citizens United is a conservative group.
Citizens United (organization) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Citizens United vs US was issued in January 2010
Timeline: Events in U.S. IRS 'Tea Party' scrutiny scandal

From the article.
2010. Tax-exempt "social welfare" groups organized under Section 501(c)(4) of the U.S. tax code become an increasingly popular conduit for increased spending on both ends of the political spectrum, but especially by conservatives.

Look, it's not a political statement to say that Republicans were the biggest culprits when it came to illegal and potentially illegal 503(c)(4) groups. That's reality.

That said. PROFILING GOP groups just because they're more likely to be fraudulant is 100% un-American. While I can understand the motivation of an agent acting like this, it does not make it acceptable. Unlike Fast and Furious, or Bengazi, this is a real scandal. We need to fix it, and the campaign finance laws which allow it. (Because honestly, none of these groups should be tax excempt)
 
Mithros said:
HUH???? You'll forgive me if this sounds a bit like a mindless rant. I'm just not getting your point.

Citizens United is a conservative group.
Citizens United (organization) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Citizens United vs US was issued in January 2010
Timeline: Events in U.S. IRS 'Tea Party' scrutiny scandal

From the article.
2010. Tax-exempt "social welfare" groups organized under Section 501(c)(4) of the U.S. tax code become an increasingly popular conduit for increased spending on both ends of the political spectrum, but especially by conservatives.

Look, it's not a political statement to say that Republicans were the biggest culprits when it came to illegal and potentially illegal 503(c)(4) groups. That's reality.

That said. PROFILING GOP groups just because they're more likely to be fraudulant is 100% un-American. While I can understand the motivation of an agent acting like this, it does not make it acceptable. Unlike Fast and Furious, or Bengazi, this is a real scandal. We need to fix it, and the campaign finance laws which allow it. (Because honestly, none of these groups should be tax excempt)
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You wrote "after Citizen United, there was a huge push". Fact, the loopholes were being exploited long before Citizens United came along.

For example, Media Maters, a 501c3, was started in 2004, receiving money from George Soros and members of his secretive Progressive Machine. It's outrageous this Progressive outfit has been allowed to maintain it's tax exempt status, however, it soldiers on, while the mention of "teaching the Constitution" is enough fodder to get the storm troops from the IRS marching through the front doors of organizations.

And no it's not reality to say Republicans were the biggest culprits. Thats your reality, which you seem to be comfortable proving has no basis in fact.
 
PeteEU said:
Never said I was okay with "abuse of power" by the IRS... I just dont see any real abuse since they were doing their jobs. All I am doing is following the GOP mantra from the Bush years when the left accused them of abuse of power.
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If you are not keeping up with current events, even Obama has strongly denounnced their actions. Still think what they were doing is okay? You think Obama is wrong on this and should support them, or be indifferent?
 
ocean515 said:
You wrote "after Citizen United, there was a huge push". Fact, the loopholes were being exploited long before Citizens United came along.

For example, Media Maters, a 501c3, was started in 2004, receiving money from George Soros and members of his secretive Progressive Machine. It's outrageous this Progressive outfit has been allowed to maintain it's tax exempt status, however, it soldiers on, while the mention of "teaching the Constitution" is enough fodder to get the storm troops from the IRS marching through the front doors of organizations.

And no it's not reality to say Republicans were the biggest culprits. Thats your reality, which you seem to be comfortable proving has no basis in fact.
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Ahh, I see what you were saying. I agree, there was fraud before citizens united. However, we're talking about IRS actions which occured in the aftermath of Citizens United.

501/503(c)(4) groups have certainly been around for a while. The AARP, and NRA are both 501c4 groups. They can be engaged in issue advocacy, but not candidate advocacy.

What Republicans did after 2010 was entirely different. They paired Super-Pacs which have to disclose their donors with 501c4 organizations which did not. Someone would create a 503c4 group with some incantation of Tea Party etc... This would allow billionairs to donate money to the non-profits. The non-profits could then donate that money to 527's. So, the purpose of the 503c4 group was in fact to act as a disclosure shelter, and not as an issue advocacy group.

Dozens of other GOP-allied 501(c)(4) groups — and a smaller number of Democratic ones — are on spending sprees fueled by donor secrecy and the Supreme Court’s historic Citizens United vs. FEC decision last year. That ruling gave the green light to corporations, unions and individuals making unlimited contributions for ads and other political tools that back specific candidates, provided there is no coordination with campaigns or party committees.

In 2010, GOP-leaning 501(c)(4) groups accounted for almost $74 million of the $89 million reported to the FEC, according to CRP.
​

So we have conservative groups spending 83% of the total 501c4 expenditures. Clearly they're the biggest culprits.

That said, profiling conservative groups is un-American, and should not be done.
 
Mithros said:
Ahh, I see what you were saying. I agree, there was fraud before citizens united. However, we're talking about IRS actions which occured in the aftermath of Citizens United.

501/503(c)(4) groups have certainly been around for a while. The AARP, and NRA are both 501c4 groups. They can be engaged in issue advocacy, but not candidate advocacy.

What Republicans did after 2010 was entirely different. They paired Super-Pacs which have to disclose their donors with 501c4 organizations which did not. Someone would create a 503c4 group with some incantation of Tea Party etc... This would allow billionairs to donate money to the non-profits. The non-profits could then donate that money to 527's. So, the purpose of the 503c4 group was in fact to act as a disclosure shelter, and not as an issue advocacy group.

Dozens of other GOP-allied 501(c)(4) groups — and a smaller number of Democratic ones — are on spending sprees fueled by donor secrecy and the Supreme Court’s historic Citizens United vs. FEC decision last year. That ruling gave the green light to corporations, unions and individuals making unlimited contributions for ads and other political tools that back specific candidates, provided there is no coordination with campaigns or party committees.

In 2010, GOP-leaning 501(c)(4) groups accounted for almost $74 million of the $89 million reported to the FEC, according to CRP.
​

So we have conservative groups spending 83% of the total 501c4 expenditures. Clearly they're the biggest culprits.

That said, profiling conservative groups is un-American, and should not be done.
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Obviously, you like to take your Huffington Post/Center for Public Integrity reports with a different flavor of toast than the majority of people.

As I pointed out in my earlier post to you, do some research on what is going on behind the scenes with the Progressive Machine. Myopic views appearing in leftist news articles, or from lefist "research" groups only excite the audience they are designed to attract.
 
danarhea said:
Here's the deal, Pete. It is abuse if they are targeting some groups, and not doing their investigations on all groups equally. Richard Nixon was notorious for using the IRS to target left wing groups in the late 1960's and early 70's. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. But I suspect that some on the left will ignore what is going on, just as the right wing ignored what was happening to left wing groups under Nixon. And this IS the problem. There are some on the far left who I see as idiots, just as there are some on the far right who I see as idiots. But, if we let the government attack those groups, under any precept, then we allow an attack on America itself. We need to defend those we disagree with, as well as those whose philosophies we subcribe to, lest sometime in the future we ALL lose liberty.

The above was well stated by the patriot who said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". NOTE: Not the exact wording (I can't remember it exactly), but the thought matches the phrase.

So, today, I am a rabid right winger. Tomorrow, if the same kinds of IRS attacks happen against the left, I will be a rabid left winger for that day. That's because I am a rabid American EVERY DAY. LOL.
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I understand you fully and I agree.

But this is fake outrage... and you know it. The right have finally gotten something on the IRS and are going full throttle on it. But when it comes to abuses of power by the right themselves... oh that is not a problem.

At least in this case, the abuse of power if any, was some what warranted. There was a hell of a lot of Tea Party linked organisations popping up and considering that even some of the Tea Party top had criminal backgrounds... for fraud, then what do you expect? "Oh this is a right wing organisation... that must mean they are totally legit, despite the leader being a convicted check bouncer or fraudster.. nothing wrong there and no need to look into it." Sorry but there is and on that issue I fully support the IRS in doing their freaking jobs for once. Now if they would also do it against big companies and the wealthy... then we might be getting some where.

Now on the more general abuse of power by a sitting administration... Iraq war scandal under Bush (what is to now? 10 billion dollars+ missing?), AG scandal under Bush, Katrina under Bush, Iran Contra under Reagan and so on and so on. Where were the exact same people who are now complaining over the IRS vs Tea Party when all this happened? Oh yea defending the abusers most likely.

What I fear, is that this case turns into the terror report case a few years ago, where the right managed to push off the administration in investigating right wing terror groups in the US, because of a report ordered by Bush happened to come out under Obama and pointed a lot of fingers to a major problem in America with right wing extremism. After this the IRS could stop looking into political and religious organisations for tax fraud, and that is a very bad thing.
 
Honestly, I'm completely baffled that anyone would be OK with this or try to defend it. Don't be so enslaved by your ideology that you justify the anti-American practice of trying to silence or disadvantage groups by the government because the government or those in the government do not like the ideology. This is wrong, and it doesn't matter what happened in the past, that excuses nothing.
 
ocean515 said:
Obviously, you like to take your Huffington Post/Center for Public Integrity reports with a different flavor of toast than the majority of people.

As I pointed out in my earlier post to you, do some research on what is going on behind the scenes with the Progressive Machine. Myopic views appearing in leftist news articles, or from lefist "research" groups only excite the audience they are designed to attract.
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FYI, simply saying "do your research" may be a convienient way to turn the conversation, but does nothing to convince me. If anything it makes your position look weaker and more ill informed.

And I have done research. I find google to be a powerful tool, particularly in date limited searches. I looked for articles around 2010 relating to 501c4 groups.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/21/opinion/la-oe-mcmanus-campaign-20101021

Here we see that GOPs were the biggest filers, and a big push for the IRS to crack down on what amounts to political money laundering. (Ie groups existing for the sole purpose of influencing elections without having to disclose their donors)

It is VERY obvious that this was a concerted Republican strategy, especially in 2010, 2011. Approaching the 2012 election, the filings were more balanced.

Crossroads GPS is a 501c4 group. I find it hard to make the case that it is a social welfare organization who's primary purpose is *not* political. (The same case can be made for some liberal leaning 503c4 groups).

Agents processing 501c4 applications were suddenly bombarded with groups that had patriot, or tea party in their names. So they did what came natural, they gave those groups greater scrutiny. While I can understand the attraction to profiling, it is un-American and we need to both investigate what happened, and fix the mess of 501c4 groups.
 
ocean515 said:
Obviously, you like to take your Huffington Post/Center for Public Integrity reports with a different flavor of toast than the majority of people.

As I pointed out in my earlier post to you, do some research on what is going on behind the scenes with the Progressive Machine. Myopic views appearing in leftist news articles, or from lefist "research" groups only excite the audience they are designed to attract.
Click to expand...

FYI, simply saying "do your research" may be a convienient way to turn the conversation, but does nothing to convince me. If anything it makes your position look weaker and more ill informed.

And I have done research. I find google to be a powerful tool, particularly in date limited searches. I looked for articles around 2010 relating to 501c4 groups.
Republicans' secret formula ? 501(c)(4) - Los Angeles Times

Here we see that GOPs were the biggest filers, and a big push for the IRS to crack down on what amounts to political money laundering. (Ie groups existing for the sole purpose of influencing elections without having to disclose their donors)

It is VERY obvious that this was a concerted Republican strategy, especially in 2010, 2011. Approaching the 2012 election, the filings were more balanced.

Crossroads GPS is a 501c4 group. I find it hard to make the case that it is a social welfare organization who's primary purpose is *not* political. (The same case can be made for some liberal leaning 503c4 groups).

Agents processing 501c4 applications were suddenly bombarded with groups that had patriot, or tea party in their names. So they did what came natural, they gave those groups greater scrutiny. While I can understand the attraction to profiling, it is un-American and we need to both investigate what happened, and fix the mess of 501c4 groups.
 
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