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IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups[W:484,732]

Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

You've got it backwards. The burden of proof is on
you. Where is your evidence that there was a plot to attack conservatives for political purposes??

Without evidence, the default assumption is that the IRS was doing this TO COLLECT TAXES.

Why exactly did they apologize ?
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

You've got it backwards. The burden of proof is on you. Where is your evidence that there was a plot to attack conservatives for political purposes??

Without evidence, the default assumption is that the IRS was doing this TO COLLECT TAXES.

Don't put words in my mouth please. And stay tuned for testimony from Lois Lerner tomorrow.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Why exactly did they apologize ?

What they did was unconstitutional, even if their motive was to collect taxes.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Don't put words in my mouth please. And stay tuned for testimony from Lois Lerner tomorrow.

I accept your de facto concession that you have no evidence.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

You've got it backwards. The burden of proof is on you. Where is your evidence that there was a plot to attack conservatives for political purposes??

Without evidence, the default assumption is that the IRS was doing this TO COLLECT TAXES.

collect taxes?

You don't know much about this scandal do you?

This has nothing to do with taxes.... The IRS was PROBING conservative groups - not financially but ideologically.

Have you seen the documents that were sent to "conservative" organizations? They ask questions like "what do your prayers consist of" or "provide every post on your facebook wall."

The fracking IRS was basically attacking individuals in an Orwellian nature.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

collect taxes?

You don't know much about this scandal do you?

This has nothing to do with taxes.... The IRS was PROBING conservative groups - not financially but ideologically.

Have you seen the documents that were sent to "conservative" organizations? They ask questions like "what do your prayers consist of" or "provide every post on your facebook wall."

The fracking IRS was basically attacking individuals in an Orwellian nature.

Good lord, the nerve of some people. Do you, Mr. Nick, have even the slightest clue why the IRS might probe a group applying for tax exempt status as to their political beliefs??

The answer is that the nature of the political actions of the group determines whether that group will qualify for tax exempt status. Everything the IRS asked is relevant to the inquiry. You are the one who clearly knows nothing about this, Mr. Nick.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

What they did was unconstitutional, even if their motive was to collect taxes.

Have you seen the documents? they weren't trying to collect taxes. The IRS was attempting to gather intelligence on dissenting organizations.

It was only a matter of time before this happened.

I don't think people realize that Obama and his congress turned the IRS into the new CIA.

I've been saying this for several years now - that the IRS is the new CIA and generally people tell me to put my tinfoil hat back on because allegedly our government is benevolent....
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Have you seen the documents? they weren't trying to collect taxes. The IRS was attempting to gather intelligence on dissenting organizations.

It was only a matter of time before this happened.

I don't think people realize that Obama and his congress turned the IRS into the new CIA.

I've been saying this for several years now - that the IRS is the new CIA and generally people tell me to put my tinfoil hat back on because allegedly our government is benevolent....

You are now in the realm of conspiracy theories. This was not "intelligence gathering.". It was gathering pertinent information to allow the IRS to make a determination as to whether the groups were issue advocacy groups or political campaigns. That is the job of the IRS!
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Good lord, the nerve of some people. Do you, Mr. Nick, have even the slightest clue why the IRS might probe a group applying for tax exempt status as to their political beliefs??

The answer is that the nature of the political actions of the group determines whether that group will qualify for tax exempt status. Everything the IRS asked is relevant to the inquiry. You are the one who clearly knows nothing about this, Mr. Nick.

Then audit them, don't demand they disclose prayer or facebook posts to prove they're anything but what they said they are.

Has there been a case of fraud yet?

When are you going to let the IRS inspect your home? when are you going to disclose your personal relationships with family members?
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

collect taxes?

You don't know much about this scandal do you?

This has nothing to do with taxes.... The IRS was PROBING conservative groups - not financially but ideologically.

Have you seen the documents that were sent to "conservative" organizations? They ask questions like "what do your prayers consist of" or "provide every post on your facebook wall."

The fracking IRS was basically attacking individuals in an Orwellian nature.
hey, nick
this was the IRS
YES, it has to do with taxes

in this case the matter was about organizations who sought TAX EXEMPTION status from the irs
once the application was received the irs then had to determine whether the applicant's circumstance complied with the regulations
thee regulations prevented tax exempt status for those organizations whose PRIMARY undertaking was involvement in political campaigns
so, those applicants whose applications provided an indication that their PRIMARY activity MIGHT entail involvement in political campaigns were pushed into one pile for deeper examination to determine the degree of their political campaign involvement ... whether it was primary or secondary
in the meantime, those who were charged with making those decisions asked the higher ups in irs for definition, a benchmark, to use to make such determinations
the senior management displayed incompetence by dragging their collective feet in providing such much-requested technical guidance

the majority of applicants who were placed in the deeper review stack were not organizations with names which would be assumed from conservative groups
the irs commissioner at the time this occurred was a george w bush appointee
the IG testified - under oath - that there was NO indication of political partisanship in the irs' actions, nor did he find white house or other agency involvement in this circumstance

given that, you are going to be hard pressed to show us EVIDENCE of political hackery by the irs in this matter
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Then audit them, don't demand they disclose prayer or facebook posts to prove they're anything but what they said they are.

Has there been a case of fraud yet?

When are you going to let the IRS inspect your home? when are you going to disclose your personal relationships with family members?

:lol: What exactly do you think an audit is?

This is what i'm talking about. This is no scandal. It is an over reaction and most of it is based on selective outrage and ignorance.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

collect taxes?

You don't know much about this scandal do you?

This has nothing to do with taxes.... The IRS was PROBING conservative groups - not financially but ideologically.

Have you seen the documents that were sent to "conservative" organizations? They ask questions like "what do your prayers consist of" or "provide every post on your facebook wall."

The fracking IRS was basically attacking individuals in an Orwellian nature.

While I sympathize with your reaction, I think a few points need to be clarified.

First, the IRS scandal has two completely different issues committed by two completely different groups of people. The first is that individuals in the Cincinnati office filtered applications by scanning for keywords like tea party for a few months. Upper management changed this, and the Cincinatti office changed it back (with broader language that still targeted conservatives, but less specifically). They also looked at a number of other factors. Groups that were flagged then sent to a special committee for further investigation. While this did grab a large number of conservative groups, conservative groups appear to be worse offenders. (at least 82% of conservative groups merited significant investigation compared to 6% of other groups).

Second, there's the issue of invasive questions sent out by the special committee to the organizations. These were sent out to 27 organizations, of which 13 were conservative. Yes they were invasive, but they're understandable given the ambiguity in the statue. What does it mean to be engaged primarily in public welfare? Educating someone about math is clearly public welfare. But what about educating someone about current issues? When does that cross the line? Every question I've read seems to be digging for that type of information.

There's no question that the IRS made significant mistakes here. But an error in judgment is not the same as an intentional attack on political enemies. So far, there is zero evidence that anyone in the IRS intentionally targeted conservatives because of their political beliefs. Instead, we have a situation where the IRS was profiling conservative groups because they were ridiculously likely to be engaged in improper activity.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

You are now in the realm of conspiracy theories. This was not "intelligence gathering.". It was gathering pertinent information to allow the IRS to make a determination as to whether the groups were issue advocacy groups or political campaigns. That is the job of the IRS!

Conspiracy theories?

Have you seen the list of demands by the IRS?

Of course not because the progressive media hides them from you and of course in your mind if a conservative site leaks them its fake in your mind..

If this is simply a financial ploy than why the **** does the IRS need intricate details such as prayer, facebook wall posts and names of members, among the 1000 + non-financial questions the IRS asks.

Oh and WHY DID OBAMACLOWN APOLOGIZE if the IRS wasn't in the wrong???

When was the last time you heard that twat apologize to conservatives?

You think Watergate was bad? this scandal is nothing more than a authoritarian version of Watergate conducted in plain view of society.

Why break into a hotel (or organization) when you can just get the info using authoritarian tactics?

You do realize people will be going to prison over this?
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

hey, nick
this was the IRS
YES, it has to do with taxes

in this case the matter was about organizations who sought TAX EXEMPTION status from the irs
once the application was received the irs then had to determine whether the applicant's circumstance complied with the regulations
thee regulations prevented tax exempt status for those organizations whose PRIMARY undertaking was involvement in political campaigns
so, those applicants whose applications provided an indication that their PRIMARY activity MIGHT entail involvement in political campaigns were pushed into one pile for deeper examination to determine the degree of their political campaign involvement ... whether it was primary or secondary
in the meantime, those who were charged with making those decisions asked the higher ups in irs for definition, a benchmark, to use to make such determinations
the senior management displayed incompetence by dragging their collective feet in providing such much-requested technical guidance

the majority of applicants who were placed in the deeper review stack were not organizations with names which would be assumed from conservative groups
the irs commissioner at the time this occurred was a george w bush appointee
the IG testified - under oath - that there was NO indication of political partisanship in the irs' actions, nor did he find white house or other agency involvement in this circumstance

given that, you are going to be hard pressed to show us EVIDENCE of political hackery by the irs in this matter
Where words fall short, statistics may prevail.
If the data shows 600 groups applied, but mostly the conservative groups were put in the
"deeper examination" pile, then that would be an indication of political bias.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

While I sympathize with your reaction, I think a few points need to be clarified.

First, the IRS scandal has two completely different issues committed by two completely different groups of people. The first is that individuals in the Cincinnati office filtered applications by scanning for keywords like tea party for a few months. Upper management changed this, and the Cincinatti office changed it back (with broader language that still targeted conservatives, but less specifically). They also looked at a number of other factors. Groups that were flagged then sent to a special committee for further investigation. While this did grab a large number of conservative groups, conservative groups appear to be worse offenders. (at least 82% of conservative groups merited significant investigation compared to 6% of other groups).

Second, there's the issue of invasive questions sent out by the special committee to the organizations. These were sent out to 27 organizations, of which 13 were conservative. Yes they were invasive, but they're understandable given the ambiguity in the statue. What does it mean to be engaged primarily in public welfare? Educating someone about math is clearly public welfare. But what about educating someone about current issues? When does that cross the line? Every question I've read seems to be digging for that type of information.

There's no question that the IRS made significant mistakes here. But an error in judgment is not the same as an intentional attack on political enemies. So far, there is zero evidence that anyone in the IRS intentionally targeted conservatives because of their political beliefs. Instead, we have a situation where the IRS was profiling conservative groups because they were ridiculously likely to be engaged in improper activity.

I know exactly what happened and I don't buy the "this is one big mistake" nonsense either.

The questions the IRS was asking was an interrogation.... 1+1=2
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

:lol: What exactly do you think an audit is?

This is what i'm talking about. This is no scandal. It is an over reaction and most of it is based on selective outrage and ignorance.

NO ONE WAS AUDITED.

This scandal was brought into light by concerned individuals who questioned the IRS' questions.

Tell me what does random facebook posts have to do with taxes? what does prayer have to do with taxes, what does substance of ideology have to do with taxes?

But yeah, you can believe whatever you like...
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

:lol: What exactly do you think an audit is?

This is what i'm talking about. This is no scandal. It is an over reaction and most of it is based on selective outrage and ignorance.

thank you for that post. the emphasis is mine. and the reason for emphasis is because it prompts an analogy to the IRS' quandry
the IRS had to determine whether an organization's activities were primarily promotion of social welfare or political campaign involvement in order to evaluate whether the applicant qualified for tax exempt status. for an organization heavily involved in both, what barometer is used to make the final call
similarly, for those who point to the IRS' circumstance with outrage and ignorance, how can we determine whether it is more outrage, or more ignorance, that causes this irrational response. which is primary?
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Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Conspiracy theories?

Have you seen the list of demands by the IRS?

Of course not because the progressive media hides them from you and of course in your mind if a conservative site leaks them its fake in your mind..

If this is simply a financial ploy than why the **** does the IRS need intricate details such as prayer, facebook wall posts and names of members, among the 1000 + non-financial questions the IRS asks.

Oh and WHY DID OBAMACLOWN APOLOGIZE if the IRS wasn't in the wrong???

When was the last time you heard that twat apologize to conservatives?

You think Watergate was bad? this scandal is nothing more than a authoritarian version of Watergate conducted in plain view of society.

Why break into a hotel (or organization) when you can just get the info using authoritarian tactics?

You do realize people will be going to prison over this?

Nobody should go to prison over this because there was no crime. I am well aware of what the IRS asked for, including prayer books, face book info, etc. For you see, the media you despise so much has covered this Non-issue endlessly.

Nothing the IRS asked for is in any way problematic. It is all standard for that sort of audit. Remember how you just said they should audit them?

Your argument makes no sense. Please think this through.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

NO ONE WAS AUDITED.
Lolwut?

This scandal was brought into light by concerned individuals who questioned the IRS' questions.

Tell me what does random facebook posts have to do with taxes? what does prayer have to do with taxes, what does substance of ideology have to do with taxes?

But yeah, you can believe whatever you like...
Easy. Facebook posts can be very informative on the political plans of a group looking for tax exempt status. If they claim to be an issue advocacy group but their Facebook page does nothing but promote a candidate, that is grounds for denying the tax exempt status.
 
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Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Things left out.

How many of the 74 of the 202 overscrutinized were right leaning.
BOLO was the terminology for tea party, 9/12 etc type groups, they specifically looked for them to examine.

Foot note 19 :
We could not determine which potential political cases may have been identified based on an organization’s policy positions.

All I can add is that this entire document was created by the Treasury who may be culpable for the fallout from the bad policy decisions. So Im going to say its not reliable enough to place your entire argument upon. There are a lot of statistics at work but there are also a lot of factors we dont know about.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

hey, nick
this was the IRS
YES, it has to do with taxes

in this case the matter was about organizations who sought TAX EXEMPTION status from the irs
once the application was received the irs then had to determine whether the applicant's circumstance complied with the regulations
thee regulations prevented tax exempt status for those organizations whose PRIMARY undertaking was involvement in political campaigns
so, those applicants whose applications provided an indication that their PRIMARY activity MIGHT entail involvement in political campaigns were pushed into one pile for deeper examination to determine the degree of their political campaign involvement ... whether it was primary or secondary
in the meantime, those who were charged with making those decisions asked the higher ups in irs for definition, a benchmark, to use to make such determinations
the senior management displayed incompetence by dragging their collective feet in providing such much-requested technical guidance

the majority of applicants who were placed in the deeper review stack were not organizations with names which would be assumed from conservative groups
the irs commissioner at the time this occurred was a george w bush appointee
the IG testified - under oath - that there was NO indication of political partisanship in the irs' actions, nor did he find white house or other agency involvement in this circumstance

given that, you are going to be hard pressed to show us EVIDENCE of political hackery by the irs in this matter

Now it's random stacks of paper?

When are the excuses going to end? even the fracking president apologized and people are being fired over this scandal yet progressives are attempting to defend it?

Funny how progressive organization weren't targeted.... So I suppose our government sorts paper via political ideology - democrats and republicans.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Lolwut?


Easy. Facebook posts can be very informative on the political plans of a group looking for tax exempt status. If they claim to be an issue advocacy group but their Facebook page does nothing but promote a candidate, that is grounds for denying the tax smelt status.


You will just defend democrats no matter what.

My facebook posts is none of the government ****ing business, that and they don't have ANY FINANICAL BENEFIT TO THE GOVERNMENT.

I suppose what I post speaks volumes for where I stand on the political spectrum and that is what the IRS wants to know.

This scandal isn't about taxes - it never was and everyone except the democrat fanboys realizes this.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

Ace of Spades HQ

The Democrats only want to discuss whether the 501(c)4 rules should be tightened, that is, they don't want to talk about politically targeting at all. They are coming very, very close to flat-out justifying Obama's IRS' actions.

Some small news: Steve Miller now admits the question asked of Lori Lerner was planted, walking back his previous ambiguity.

The author of the IG Report notes that the IRS staffers who denied a political motivation in their targeting did so not under oath.
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

When will people realize the governments interest is self preservation? and that they will takeout anyone and everyone that threatens their preservation?
 
Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

The author of the IG Report notes that the IRS staffers who denied a political motivation in their targeting did so not under oath.
i remember him offering that observation
effectively answering a question which had not been posed
which betrayed his objectivity
which may explain why he, in his IG report, characterized the setting aside of applications with politically indicative names as "targeting" which the acting commissioner, miller, did not
and his lean is further demonstrated when the IG was asked if he found any hint of political partisanship in the IRS' employee actions - and he testified - under oath - that no such political partisanship was evident. so, it is difficult for me to then find that "targeting" actually happened


now, back to the matter of the employees not answering the IG's questions under oath. had they not been federal employees, that may have been significant. however, federal employees who lie when asked for a response by a higher graded civil servant are subject to discipline for such lying, which discipline can include termination of employment and referral of the matter to DoJ for prosecution

which then causes me to recognize that the 'not under oath' distinction of the IG was not a significant one. in fact, the IG, while conducting the investigation and questioning the veracity of answers provided by the employees, possessed the authority to then place them under oath and again ask the question. he did not do so, which tells me he accepted the legitimacy of the answers
unfortunately, the D congressmen on the ways and means panel did not have the insight to ask the IG why he opted NOT to place any employee under oath where a concern about the truth existed. another wasted opportunity to expose the IG's bias for public viewing
 
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