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Thread: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups[W:484,732]

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Then audit them, don't demand they disclose prayer or facebook posts to prove they're anything but what they said they are.

    Has there been a case of fraud yet?

    When are you going to let the IRS inspect your home? when are you going to disclose your personal relationships with family members?
    What exactly do you think an audit is?

    This is what i'm talking about. This is no scandal. It is an over reaction and most of it is based on selective outrage and ignorance.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    collect taxes?

    You don't know much about this scandal do you?

    This has nothing to do with taxes.... The IRS was PROBING conservative groups - not financially but ideologically.

    Have you seen the documents that were sent to "conservative" organizations? They ask questions like "what do your prayers consist of" or "provide every post on your facebook wall."

    The fracking IRS was basically attacking individuals in an Orwellian nature.
    While I sympathize with your reaction, I think a few points need to be clarified.

    First, the IRS scandal has two completely different issues committed by two completely different groups of people. The first is that individuals in the Cincinnati office filtered applications by scanning for keywords like tea party for a few months. Upper management changed this, and the Cincinatti office changed it back (with broader language that still targeted conservatives, but less specifically). They also looked at a number of other factors. Groups that were flagged then sent to a special committee for further investigation. While this did grab a large number of conservative groups, conservative groups appear to be worse offenders. (at least 82% of conservative groups merited significant investigation compared to 6% of other groups).

    Second, there's the issue of invasive questions sent out by the special committee to the organizations. These were sent out to 27 organizations, of which 13 were conservative. Yes they were invasive, but they're understandable given the ambiguity in the statue. What does it mean to be engaged primarily in public welfare? Educating someone about math is clearly public welfare. But what about educating someone about current issues? When does that cross the line? Every question I've read seems to be digging for that type of information.

    There's no question that the IRS made significant mistakes here. But an error in judgment is not the same as an intentional attack on political enemies. So far, there is zero evidence that anyone in the IRS intentionally targeted conservatives because of their political beliefs. Instead, we have a situation where the IRS was profiling conservative groups because they were ridiculously likely to be engaged in improper activity.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You are now in the realm of conspiracy theories. This was not "intelligence gathering.". It was gathering pertinent information to allow the IRS to make a determination as to whether the groups were issue advocacy groups or political campaigns. That is the job of the IRS!
    Conspiracy theories?

    Have you seen the list of demands by the IRS?

    Of course not because the progressive media hides them from you and of course in your mind if a conservative site leaks them its fake in your mind..

    If this is simply a financial ploy than why the **** does the IRS need intricate details such as prayer, facebook wall posts and names of members, among the 1000 + non-financial questions the IRS asks.

    Oh and WHY DID OBAMACLOWN APOLOGIZE if the IRS wasn't in the wrong???

    When was the last time you heard that twat apologize to conservatives?

    You think Watergate was bad? this scandal is nothing more than a authoritarian version of Watergate conducted in plain view of society.

    Why break into a hotel (or organization) when you can just get the info using authoritarian tactics?

    You do realize people will be going to prison over this?

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    hey, nick
    this was the IRS
    YES, it has to do with taxes

    in this case the matter was about organizations who sought TAX EXEMPTION status from the irs
    once the application was received the irs then had to determine whether the applicant's circumstance complied with the regulations
    thee regulations prevented tax exempt status for those organizations whose PRIMARY undertaking was involvement in political campaigns
    so, those applicants whose applications provided an indication that their PRIMARY activity MIGHT entail involvement in political campaigns were pushed into one pile for deeper examination to determine the degree of their political campaign involvement ... whether it was primary or secondary
    in the meantime, those who were charged with making those decisions asked the higher ups in irs for definition, a benchmark, to use to make such determinations
    the senior management displayed incompetence by dragging their collective feet in providing such much-requested technical guidance

    the majority of applicants who were placed in the deeper review stack were not organizations with names which would be assumed from conservative groups
    the irs commissioner at the time this occurred was a george w bush appointee
    the IG testified - under oath - that there was NO indication of political partisanship in the irs' actions, nor did he find white house or other agency involvement in this circumstance

    given that, you are going to be hard pressed to show us EVIDENCE of political hackery by the irs in this matter
    Where words fall short, statistics may prevail.
    If the data shows 600 groups applied, but mostly the conservative groups were put in the
    "deeper examination" pile, then that would be an indication of political bias.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    While I sympathize with your reaction, I think a few points need to be clarified.

    First, the IRS scandal has two completely different issues committed by two completely different groups of people. The first is that individuals in the Cincinnati office filtered applications by scanning for keywords like tea party for a few months. Upper management changed this, and the Cincinatti office changed it back (with broader language that still targeted conservatives, but less specifically). They also looked at a number of other factors. Groups that were flagged then sent to a special committee for further investigation. While this did grab a large number of conservative groups, conservative groups appear to be worse offenders. (at least 82% of conservative groups merited significant investigation compared to 6% of other groups).

    Second, there's the issue of invasive questions sent out by the special committee to the organizations. These were sent out to 27 organizations, of which 13 were conservative. Yes they were invasive, but they're understandable given the ambiguity in the statue. What does it mean to be engaged primarily in public welfare? Educating someone about math is clearly public welfare. But what about educating someone about current issues? When does that cross the line? Every question I've read seems to be digging for that type of information.

    There's no question that the IRS made significant mistakes here. But an error in judgment is not the same as an intentional attack on political enemies. So far, there is zero evidence that anyone in the IRS intentionally targeted conservatives because of their political beliefs. Instead, we have a situation where the IRS was profiling conservative groups because they were ridiculously likely to be engaged in improper activity.
    I know exactly what happened and I don't buy the "this is one big mistake" nonsense either.

    The questions the IRS was asking was an interrogation.... 1+1=2

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    What exactly do you think an audit is?

    This is what i'm talking about. This is no scandal. It is an over reaction and most of it is based on selective outrage and ignorance.
    NO ONE WAS AUDITED.

    This scandal was brought into light by concerned individuals who questioned the IRS' questions.

    Tell me what does random facebook posts have to do with taxes? what does prayer have to do with taxes, what does substance of ideology have to do with taxes?

    But yeah, you can believe whatever you like...

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    What exactly do you think an audit is?

    This is what i'm talking about. This is no scandal. It is an over reaction and most of it is based on selective outrage and ignorance.
    thank you for that post. the emphasis is mine. and the reason for emphasis is because it prompts an analogy to the IRS' quandry
    the IRS had to determine whether an organization's activities were primarily promotion of social welfare or political campaign involvement in order to evaluate whether the applicant qualified for tax exempt status. for an organization heavily involved in both, what barometer is used to make the final call
    similarly, for those who point to the IRS' circumstance with outrage and ignorance, how can we determine whether it is more outrage, or more ignorance, that causes this irrational response. which is primary?
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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Conspiracy theories?

    Have you seen the list of demands by the IRS?

    Of course not because the progressive media hides them from you and of course in your mind if a conservative site leaks them its fake in your mind..

    If this is simply a financial ploy than why the **** does the IRS need intricate details such as prayer, facebook wall posts and names of members, among the 1000 + non-financial questions the IRS asks.

    Oh and WHY DID OBAMACLOWN APOLOGIZE if the IRS wasn't in the wrong???

    When was the last time you heard that twat apologize to conservatives?

    You think Watergate was bad? this scandal is nothing more than a authoritarian version of Watergate conducted in plain view of society.

    Why break into a hotel (or organization) when you can just get the info using authoritarian tactics?

    You do realize people will be going to prison over this?
    Nobody should go to prison over this because there was no crime. I am well aware of what the IRS asked for, including prayer books, face book info, etc. For you see, the media you despise so much has covered this Non-issue endlessly.

    Nothing the IRS asked for is in any way problematic. It is all standard for that sort of audit. Remember how you just said they should audit them?

    Your argument makes no sense. Please think this through.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    NO ONE WAS AUDITED.
    Lolwut?

    This scandal was brought into light by concerned individuals who questioned the IRS' questions.

    Tell me what does random facebook posts have to do with taxes? what does prayer have to do with taxes, what does substance of ideology have to do with taxes?

    But yeah, you can believe whatever you like...
    Easy. Facebook posts can be very informative on the political plans of a group looking for tax exempt status. If they claim to be an issue advocacy group but their Facebook page does nothing but promote a candidate, that is grounds for denying the tax exempt status.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 05-21-13 at 01:07 PM.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Things left out.

    How many of the 74 of the 202 overscrutinized were right leaning.
    BOLO was the terminology for tea party, 9/12 etc type groups, they specifically looked for them to examine.

    Foot note 19 :
    We could not determine which potential political cases may have been identified based on an organizationís policy positions.
    All I can add is that this entire document was created by the Treasury who may be culpable for the fallout from the bad policy decisions. So Im going to say its not reliable enough to place your entire argument upon. There are a lot of statistics at work but there are also a lot of factors we dont know about.

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