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Thread: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups[W:484,732]

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    I love how progressives are content with an apology - as if this case was on par with a democrat politician getting caught with a hooker or something or a democrat politician using public funds for personal use, caught posting pictures or their dong online or caught smoking crack.....

    "Oh, I'm sorry that you found out our government is Orwellian in nature - move along - its not that big of a deal."

    I suppose this is what progressives get when they vote for big government..... The best part is - is watching progressives defend the monster entity.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    first we would need to see that anyone had lied or misled congress
    show us any instance where this was the circumstance during the ways and means hearing of the IRS exempt determination unit activities and we can then pursue your proposition that lying and/or misleading congress should be found unacceptable

    now, here is my challenge to you. please do not run away from it

    identify who lied and post their lies - so that we can discuss your point
    but because you will be unable to do that, there will be nothing to discuss
    There was more than one person lying....

    Rep. Joseph Crowley (D-N.Y.) said the former Internal Revenue Service (IRS) commissioner appointed by President George W. Bush lied to Congress under oath when he told lawmakers last year that the agency did not give special attention to certain groups.


    Following the House’s opening investigative hearing into the IRS's revelation that it gave extra scrutiny to conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status, Crowley was asked if he believed Douglas Shulman lied to Congress.
    “I think Mr. Shulman did,” said Crowley in an interview with Fox News.
    “My understanding is that it was common knowledge if they were going after political groups back then.”
    Crowley was referencing a 2012 House Ways and Means Committee hearing in which Shulman, in response to questions from Rep. Charles Boustany (R-La.), held that the IRS was not targeting specific groups applying for tax-exempt status.
    "There's absolutely no targeting,” said Shulman at the time.
    The encounter raised suspicions for Boustany as well, who recounted the incident during the same interview with Crowley.
    “He said, absolutely not. He categorically denied it,” recalled Boustany on Friday. “But he was aware of what was going on during this time frame because we know that [a] senior technical advisor had already been sent out to Cincinnati to investigate what was going on and to report back.”
    Shulman completed his five-year term as IRS chief in November of last year. He was replaced by Steven Miller, whom President Obama asked to resign this week after the IRS scandal erupted.


    Read more: Dem: Ex-IRS chief lied to Congress - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room
    Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook
    That's a democrat congressman saying so.

    Miller came under aggressive and accusatory questioning from Camp and other Republicans, who claimed he misled Congress by failing to reveal the extent of the problem at previous hearings dating back a year.
    "When asked the truth and you know the truth and you have a legal responsibility to inform others of the truth but you don't share that truth, what is that called?" Camp asked.
    "I always answer questions truthfully, Mr. Camp," Miller replied.
    A tense exchange with Rep. Diane Black, a Tennessee Republican, involved Miller's denial that what he called the "listing" of names or phrases that triggered extra scrutiny of exemption requests amounted to political "targeting," the word used in the inspector general's report.
    Miller acknowledged that the list of triggering phrases was conservative-based, causing Black to cut him off by declaring: "Then I would say its targeted. You can't have that both ways."
    GOP Rep. Devin Nunes of California later asked why Miller resigned if he wasn't personally involved in the improper acts. Miller replied: "I resigned because as the acting commissioner, what happens in the IRS, whether I was personally involved or not, stopped at my desk."
    "And so, I should be held accountable for what happens," he said. "Whether I was personally involved or not, a very different question, sir."
    Another Republican, Rep. Tom Reed of New York, took exception with Miller's characterization of his resignation, noting it meant he would retire with full benefits and "nothing bad is going to happen to you."
    With an incredulous grin, Miller responded: "Nothing bad is happening to me, congressman?"
    Reed remained stern-faced, noting Miller continued to get his taxpayer-funded salary.
    "You're getting paid for being here today, right?" Reed asked, to which Miller, his smile gone, dryly replied: "Right."
    After the hearing, Camp described a "disturbing lack of detail and information" during testimony.

    IRS official denies intentional political targeting, lying to Congress - CNN.com
    Now come on Bubba, this crap just doesn't pass the smell test....

    here is the portion of my post you objected to:

    you are right - you DON'T get it
    whether that is because you choose not to or are incapable of understanding it, only you know the answer
    an employee of the IRS CANNOT discuss individual case matters without being in violation with IRS regulations
    that is true whether the employee is discussing the matter with congress or their next door neighbor
    now, the congress COULD compel him to testify with the promise of immunity - or limited immunity - extending only to the IRS prohibition about information disclosure outside the agency
    but the congress did not choose that option
    if the information they were seeking from miller was essential to the congress' process, they could have issued the (limited) immunity. and did not

    a CIA/DIA/NSA agent could not publicly disclose to the congress classified information without being in violation of government regulations. hopefully, you understand that reality. well, it works the same way for the IRS and its access to information submitted by taxpayers to that agency
    i do not know how to make a simple concept any simpler so that you can 'get it'
    Yeah? Well then who leaked to Pro Publica?

    The division of the Internal Revenue Service that improperly scrutinized the tax-exempt status of conservative groups sent confidential information on 31 conservative groups to the well-funded liberal nonprofit journalism organization ProPublica, according to a revelation made by ProPublica Monday.

    “The same IRS office that deliberately targeted conservative groups applying for tax-exempt status in the run-up to the 2012 election released nine pending confidential applications of conservative groups to ProPublica late last year,” according to the ProPublica report.



    Read more: IRS sent confidential info to liberal nonprofit ProPublica | The Daily Caller
    So it's ok to leak private info to news outlets supported by the Sandler's and George Soros, but just can't talk to the congressional committee that oversees their activity?

    “Do you know if the IRS leaked tax information related to Mitt Romney during the Republican presidential primary general campaign?” Idaho Rep. Raúl Labrador asked Holder when he appeared before the House Judiciary Committee this week.

    When Holder responded that he didn’t know, the website Talking Points Memo reported, Labrador asked him to investigate the topic. But the attorney general replied that he isn’t sure if he has a “predicate for it.”



    Read more: Lawmaker: Holder must probe leak of Romney tax returns | The Daily Caller
    So, the IRS also leaked information of a presidential candidate to yet another outlet, TPM, but you don't think that the head of the IRS can talk to the oversight committee, and Holder doesn't think he can investigate....shocking!

    what your post conveys is your inability to undermine any of the arguments i have presented
    there is no reason for outrage by you, your ilk, or progressives, or Obama
    all that happened was the IRS determination unit placed for deeper review those applications where there was an indication the applicant organization MIGHT engage in political campaign activities to a degree which would exclude it from tax exemption. determining that was their job. the staff handled it as they did because of loosely worded regulations and no specification how to address processing those applications under that vague criteria
    if you are outraged at that, then you may want to check your blood pressure
    Really? I don't recall seeing Media Matters for America on that list, or Think Progress, or even Obama's brother starting up the same thing under Barrack's name....In fact they fast tracked their approval....

    Lois Lerner, the senior IRS official at the center of the decision to target tea party groups for burdensome tax scrutiny, signed paperwork granting tax-exempt status to the Barack H. Obama Foundation, a shady charity headed by the president’s half-brother that operated illegally for years.

    According to the organization’s filings, Lerner approved the foundation’s tax status within a month of filing, an unprecedented timeline that stands in stark contrast to conservative organizations that have been waiting for more than three years, in some cases, for approval.

    Lerner also appears to have broken with the norms of tax-exemption approval by granting retroactive tax-exempt status to Malik Obama’s organization.



    Read more: Lois Lerner approved exemption for Obama brother's 'charity' | The Daily Caller
    Not only did he get special treatment, but unheard of retroactive coverage....

    But please by all means Bubba, continue to tell us all that the sky is red, not blue....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post

    you are right - you DON'T get it
    whether that is because you choose not to or are incapable of understanding it, only you know the answer
    an employee of the IRS CANNOT discuss individual case matters without being in violation with IRS regulations
    that is true whether the employee is discussing the matter with congress or their next door neighbor
    now, the congress COULD compel him to testify with the promise of immunity - or limited immunity - extending only to the IRS prohibition about information disclosure outside the agency
    but the congress did not choose that option
    if the information they were seeking from miller was essential to the congress' process, they could have issued the (limited) immunity. and did not

    a CIA/DIA/NSA agent could not publicly disclose to the congress classified information without being in violation of government regulations. hopefully, you understand that reality. well, it works the same way for the IRS and its access to information submitted by taxpayers to that agency
    i do not know how to make a simple concept any simpler so that you can 'get it'



    what your post conveys is your inability to undermine any of the arguments i have presented
    there is no reason for outrage by you, your ilk, or progressives, or Obama
    all that happened was the IRS determination unit placed for deeper review those applications where there was an indication the applicant organization MIGHT engage in political campaign activities to a degree which would exclude it from tax exemption. determining that was their job. the staff handled it as they did because of loosely worded regulations and no specification how to address processing those applications under that vague criteria
    if you are outraged at that, then you may want to check your blood pressure
    True Scandal | National Review Online

    OSHA, ATF, IRS--multiple inspections and audits AFTER 2010 when she involved herself in politics.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    True Scandal | National Review Online

    OSHA, ATF, IRS--multiple inspections and audits AFTER 2010 when she involved herself in politics.
    According to the report 91 of 298 applications were subjected to unnecessary scrutiny by the special committee. Of those 91, 17 were tea party, patriots, or 9/12 related. There were a total of 96 tea party, patriots, or 9/12 related groups.

    This means that 18% of all tea party, patriots, or 9/12 groups that were investigated were investigated unfairly. In comparison, 37% of the other groups that were investigated, shouldn't have been.

    Although they were targeted, Tea Party groups were unfairly investigated at HALF the rate of other 501(c)(4)s.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    According to the report 91 of 298 applications were subjected to unnecessary scrutiny by the special committee. Of those 91, 17 were tea party, patriots, or 9/12 related. There were a total of 96 tea party, patriots, or 9/12 related groups.

    This means that 18% of all tea party, patriots, or 9/12 groups that were investigated were investigated unfairly. In comparison, 37% of the other groups that were investigated, shouldn't have been.

    Although they were targeted, Tea Party groups were unfairly investigated at HALF the rate of other 501(c)(4)s.
    Where are you getting your figures from? And what amount of discrimination is ok with you?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    According to the report 91 of 298 applications were subjected to unnecessary scrutiny by the special committee. Of those 91, 17 were tea party, patriots, or 9/12 related. There were a total of 96 tea party, patriots, or 9/12 related groups.

    This means that 18% of all tea party, patriots, or 9/12 groups that were investigated were investigated unfairly. In comparison, 37% of the other groups that were investigated, shouldn't have been.

    Although they were targeted, Tea Party groups were unfairly investigated at HALF the rate of other 501(c)(4)s.
    Its not just the percentages, its what was asked and a possibility of collusion from other agencies.

    Facebook pages, attendee roll calls, meeting minutes...and donation lists would seem ok, except its not for public consumption and its already been leaked.

    Which doesnt explain away other agencies investigating this family after the mother got involved in political action.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Its not just the percentages, its what was asked and a possibility of collusion from other agencies.

    Facebook pages, attendee roll calls, meeting minutes...and donation lists would seem ok, except its not for public consumption and its already been leaked.

    Which doesnt explain away other agencies investigating this family after the mother got involved in political action.
    I agree with all, except for donation lists....That would seem to be an absolute tool of corruption...
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    According to the report 91 of 298 applications were subjected to unnecessary scrutiny by the special committee. Of those 91, 17 were tea party, patriots, or 9/12 related. There were a total of 96 tea party, patriots, or 9/12 related groups.

    This means that 18% of all tea party, patriots, or 9/12 groups that were investigated were investigated unfairly. In comparison, 37% of the other groups that were investigated, shouldn't have been.

    Although they were targeted, Tea Party groups were unfairly investigated at HALF the rate of other 501(c)(4)s.


    So airports targeting passengers with the name "Mohammad" is OK so long as only 18% of Muslim passengers have name "Mohammad"?

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Its not just the percentages, its what was asked and a possibility of collusion from other agencies.

    Facebook pages, attendee roll calls, meeting minutes...and donation lists would seem ok, except its not for public consumption and its already been leaked.

    Which doesnt explain away other agencies investigating this family after the mother got involved in political action.
    You certainly have a point here.

    Conservative groups made up 13 of 27 groups that received invasive or excessive questions. That means that 14 of 206 non conservative groups were also subjected to unnecessary questions. Using that as a baseline, you'd expect 7 conservative groups to receive these questions.

    There were 6 conservative groups that had to fill out invasive questions above what we would statistically have expected.

    Conservative groups were profiled. This is completely unacceptable. However the groups that were targeted were also extremely likely to abuse the tax code. The net result is that even with targeting, conservative groups were falsely investigated at half the rate of other groups. However, of those that were investigated, tea party groups were twice as likely to be subjected to invasive questions. Granted, we're only talking about 6 conservative groups, but that's still too many.

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    Re: IRS apologizes for inappropriately targeting conservative political groups [W:484

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    So airports targeting passengers with the name "Mohammad" is OK so long as only 18% of Muslim passengers have name "Mohammad"?
    Absolutely not. Profiling is wrong because in the US we don't think that anyone deserves extra scrutiny just because they happen to be of a particular skin color, practice a certain religion, or have a certain set of political views.

    If profiling was okay, the only scandal would be that too few Conservative groups were falsely targeted. Conservative groups were falsely targeted at half the rate of other groups. Even if they were targeted at a higher rate than other groups, they violated the law at an even higher rate than they were targeted.

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