A connection between plastic guns and homegrown marijuana

danarhea · May 9, 2013

The eight-month experiment by Cody Wilson ended with a gun that can be assembled out of plastic parts, and made potentially lethal with the addition of a household nail and a bullet. Video has surfaced of Wilson firing the gun during testing.
Wilson put the plans on the Internet for free, and they were quickly downloaded by more than 100,000 people.

And

The Supreme Court decided not to hear the Stewart case, but it told the Ninth Circuit to reconsider it in light of another Supreme Court case, Gonzales v. Raich.
In the Raich case, the court ruled that the Commerce Clause gave Congress to right to ban homegrown marijuana, even when states approved it for medical uses, because of the potential effects on interstate commerce.
In 2006, the Ninth Circuit issued a new ruling in the Stewart case, saying that, “We therefore hold that Congress had a rational basis for concluding that in the aggregate, possession of homemade machine guns could substantially affect interstate commerce in machine guns.”

How this would be enforced, though, is beyond me. There is a first amendment issue here, as well as the fact that plans for homemade printed guns could be printed outside of our borders, where these laws would have no effect. And, of course, there is a second amendment issue as well. What do you think?

Article is here.

NOTE: I have already downloaded the plans for the gun, known as the Liberator, but don't intend to make one. This gun is good for ONE ROUND ONLY, if that. The firing of the bullet pretty much renders the weapon useless for future firings, due to destruction of the plastic material inside the barrel. And, at thousands of dollars to make a single weapon, this gun is pretty much economically unfeasable.

NOTE2: If you do happen to make this gun, you will be breaking federal law if you do not put a slug of iron or steel that weighs at least 6 ounces somewhere in it, so it can be detected at airports, etc.

MaggieD · May 9, 2013

danarhea said:
And

How this would be enforced, though, is beyond me. There is a first amendment issue here, as well as the fact that plans for homemade printed guns could be printed outside of our borders, where these laws would have no effect. And, of course, there is a second amendment issue as well. What do you think?

Article is here.

NOTE: I have already downloaded the plans for the gun, known as the Liberator, but don't intend to make one. This gun is good for ONE ROUND ONLY, if that. The firing of the bullet pretty much renders the weapon useless for future firings, due to destruction of the plastic material inside the barrel. And, at thousands of dollars to make a single weapon, this gun is pretty much economically unfeasable.

NOTE2: If you do happen to make this gun, you will be breaking federal law if you do not put a slug of iron or steel that weighs at least 6 ounces somewhere in it, so it can be detected at airports, etc.

I can go buy a gun on the street that I can use over and over and over again for $300 or less. Why would I want to pay thousands for a one-shot wonder? Since it can't be tested, I'm thinking we'll soon read about some nasty accidents. As to not being able to detect them with metal detectors? The sooner we ban all carry-ons from airplanes, the better as far as I'm concerned.

I don't understand what the marijuana rulings and the plastic gun issue have in common.

Risky Thicket · May 9, 2013

MaggieD said:
I can go buy a gun on the street that I can use over and over and over again for $300 or less. Why would I want to pay thousands for a one-shot wonder? Since it can't be tested, I'm thinking we'll soon read about some nasty accidents. As to not being able to detect them with metal detectors? The sooner we ban all carry-ons from airplanes, the better as far as I'm concerned.

I don't understand what the marijuana rulings and the plastic gun issue have in common.

I think Dana has been smoking plastic dope.

Republic Now! · May 9, 2013

danarhea said:
NOTE: I have already downloaded the plans for the gun, known as the Liberator, but don't intend to make one. This gun is good for ONE ROUND ONLY, if that. The firing of the bullet pretty much renders the weapon useless for future firings, due to destruction of the plastic material inside the barrel. And, at thousands of dollars to make a single weapon, this gun is pretty much economically unfeasable.

That will change as the technology improves.

NOTE2: If you do happen to make this gun, you will be breaking federal law if you do not put a slug of iron or steel that weighs at least 6 ounces somewhere in it, so it can be detected at airports, etc.

I'm sure that will stop the criminals.

SMTA · May 9, 2013

danarhea said:
And

How this would be enforced, though, is beyond me. There is a first amendment issue here, as well as the fact that plans for homemade printed guns could be printed outside of our borders, where these laws would have no effect. And, of course, there is a second amendment issue as well. What do you think?

Article is here.

NOTE: I have already downloaded the plans for the gun, known as the Liberator, but don't intend to make one. This gun is good for ONE ROUND ONLY, if that. The firing of the bullet pretty much renders the weapon useless for future firings, due to destruction of the plastic material inside the barrel. And, at thousands of dollars to make a single weapon, this gun is pretty much economically unfeasable.

NOTE2: If you do happen to make this gun, you will be breaking federal law if you do not put a slug of iron or steel that weighs at least 6 ounces somewhere in it, so it can be detected at airports, etc.

Then there are the nagging issues of that $30,000 3D printer, the required plastic medium, and the CAD software.....

One can buy a lot of guns and ammo for $30,000+.

polgara · May 9, 2013

SMTA said:
Then there are the nagging issues of that $30,000 3D printer, the required plastic medium, and the CAD software.....

One can buy a lot of guns and ammo for $30,000+.

Good afternoon, SMTA. :2wave:

There you go with logic again! How many times do we have to remind you about that? Sheesh! :lamo:

Lutherf · May 9, 2013

Risky Thicket said:
I think Dana has been smoking plastic dope.

Hmm....I seem to remember Cheech and Chong driving a panel van made out of plasticized marijuana. I figure that it's only a matter of time before handguns are made out of "fiberweed".:lol:

What if...? · May 9, 2013

Anybody remember the original "Liberator"?

Single shot .45. Dropped in Europe during WW2.

Took longer to load than it did to make.

RabidAlpaca · May 9, 2013

MaggieD said:
I can go buy a gun on the street that I can use over and over and over again for $300 or less. Why would I want to pay thousands for a one-shot wonder? Since it can't be tested, I'm thinking we'll soon read about some nasty accidents. As to not being able to detect them with metal detectors? The sooner we ban all carry-ons from airplanes, the better as far as I'm concerned.

I don't understand what the marijuana rulings and the plastic gun issue have in common.

danarhea said:
And

How this would be enforced, though, is beyond me. There is a first amendment issue here, as well as the fact that plans for homemade printed guns could be printed outside of our borders, where these laws would have no effect. And, of course, there is a second amendment issue as well. What do you think?

Article is here.

NOTE: I have already downloaded the plans for the gun, known as the Liberator, but don't intend to make one. This gun is good for ONE ROUND ONLY, if that. The firing of the bullet pretty much renders the weapon useless for future firings, due to destruction of the plastic material inside the barrel. And, at thousands of dollars to make a single weapon, this gun is pretty much economically unfeasable.

NOTE2: If you do happen to make this gun, you will be breaking federal law if you do not put a slug of iron or steel that weighs at least 6 ounces somewhere in it, so it can be detected at airports, etc.

SMTA said:
Then there are the nagging issues of that $30,000 3D printer, the required plastic medium, and the CAD software.....

One can buy a lot of guns and ammo for $30,000+.

You're calculating the cost of the printer in the price. That'd be like saying: "That report for school cost me $200 to print".

In reality the gun's materials cost under $10 once you have the printer ($500-$1200 for the printer, the software is free.)

Risky Thicket · May 9, 2013

Lutherf said:
Hmm....I seem to remember Cheech and Chong driving a panel van made out of plasticized marijuana. I figure that it's only a matter of time before handguns are made out of "fiberweed".:lol:

A real smoking gun. :mrgreen:

SMTA · May 9, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
You're calculating the cost of the printer in the price. That'd be like saying: "That report for school cost me $200 to print".

In reality the gun's materials cost under $10 once you have the printer ($500-$1200 for the printer, the software is free.)

I understand about amortizing fixed assets over time and units produced.

This instance is at an individual level, not a large manufacturer.

The $30K came from several articles that I have read about this process.

I believe that the next step will be powdered metal and some type of adhesive binder that can be heated for bonding, not unlike the MIM (Metal Injection Molding) process, which uses heat and pressure.

SMTA · May 9, 2013

polgara said:
Good afternoon, SMTA. :2wave:

There you go with logic again! How many times do we have to remind you about that? Sheesh! :lamo:

Hello!

I was actually being more of a smartass than anything else, but thanks.

The folks who really need to worry are the replacement parts sources, like for automotive parts.

soot · May 9, 2013

MaggieD said:
I don't understand what the marijuana rulings and the plastic gun issue have in common.

These plastic guns are "homegrown", if you will.

The citation to the Raich case demonstrates that homegrown things are subject to the authority of the federal government if those things can be used in the conduct of interstate commerce.

RabidAlpaca · May 9, 2013

SMTA said:
I understand about amortizing fixed assets over time and units produced.

This instance is at an individual level, not a large manufacturer.

The $30K came from several articles that I have read about this process.

I believe that the next step will be powdered metal and some type of adhesive binder that can be heated for bonding, not unlike the MIM (Metal Injection Molding) process, which uses heat and pressure.

The point is, nobody is going to be buying 3d printers to print guns. They will however eventually be ubiquitous enough in the average person's home that any citizen could print one for near nothing.

This is also the first 3d printed gun ever. People keep harping on it for only firing one bullet, and possibly being destroyed afterwards, but that's not the point. Rome was not built in a day.

tererun · May 9, 2013

I wonder if someone claimed the government would start stepping in to protect gun manufacturers from cheapo home made plastic guns? Oh, and who will be one of the main supporters of these regulations to protect manufacturers? It will be the NRA be3cause their job is to protect gun sales, and the second amendment is only an indirect protection they offer.

Of course these printers will drop in price. They will also advance into better materials and technology. We know this will happen because it happens with all technology. It may take a couple of decades, but a couple of decades ago you would have spent thousands on a dot matrix printer and today you would be pissed if you had to lift one to toss it our because the pile of crap was in your way. Something as versatile and useful as 3d printing, which is basically manufacturing, is going to be useful and perhaps in every home in a few decades. The products from it will become better and more durable. the designs made to produce products will become better and more versatile. The programs to make the designs will become better and easier to use. Given the internet there will be no real way for the government to prevent the spread of these designs.

So yes, printable guns are a huge problem for gun manufacturers. Not to mention many other manufacturers who will have to deal with an even cheaper method of production of their products. Prepare to see the republicans and the democrats start going bipartisan on limiting this technology from the start. It is actually a bit dangerous for this useful technology that the first thing people focus on is guns. It looks like they are already building fear about self manufacturing to try and keep these printers prohibitive.

Still, i would imagine by the time this all hits the fan i will be too old to really care much.

obvious Child · May 10, 2013

Republic Now! said:
That will change as the technology improves.

Not in the near future. They're having problems getting 3D printers to print out simple oil water cell synthetic cells. Getting a 3D printer to manufacture Carbon fiber is a long, long, long way from now. Composite materials do not work well with printing. And there is a reason they skipped powder titanium, it's expensive and it's weak.

If you're a criminal, it's utterly stupid to spend the money on a printer and materials to get a shoddy one shot pistol when you can simply buy a stolen pistol for under $300.

obvious Child · May 10, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
You're calculating the cost of the printer in the price. That'd be like saying: "That report for school cost me $200 to print".

In reality the gun's materials cost under $10 once you have the printer ($500-$1200 for the printer, the software is free.)

And if you're a criminal, why would you spend that kind of money on a one shot pistol when you can get a real firearm for much less?

Furthermore, making a plastic pistol on a $500 3D printer is just asking for trouble. Like a hospital bill. When the thing fails in your hand.

obvious Child · May 10, 2013

tererun said:
Of course these printers will drop in price. They will also advance into better materials and technology. We know this will happen because it happens with all technology. It may take a couple of decades, but a couple of decades ago you would have spent thousands on a dot matrix printer and today you would be pissed if you had to lift one to toss it our because the pile of crap was in your way. Something as versatile and useful as 3d printing, which is basically manufacturing, is going to be useful and perhaps in every home in a few decades. The products from it will become better and more durable. the designs made to produce products will become better and more versatile. The programs to make the designs will become better and easier to use. Given the internet there will be no real way for the government to prevent the spread of these designs.

The real problem is when they start merging 3D printers with computer controlled lathing machines and extruders at a cheap price.

The lathe can build the parts that have major stress easily from blocks of raw steel, the extruders can lay down fibers such as thin glass that then go to the 3D printer for production of things like Carbon Fiber. The 3D printer alone is not a big issue, it's the merging of it with other machines that when paired with design software can produce reliable, relatively affordable, safe firearms. It wouldn't be surprised that such a machine would also have a robotic arm and welder for automatic final assembly. You could literally load the raw materials, press go and get a rifle out in half an hour. But we are not there yet, nor will we be for a while.

CaptinSarcastic · May 10, 2013

danarhea said:
And

How this would be enforced, though, is beyond me. There is a first amendment issue here, as well as the fact that plans for homemade printed guns could be printed outside of our borders, where these laws would have no effect. And, of course, there is a second amendment issue as well. What do you think?

Article is here.

NOTE: I have already downloaded the plans for the gun, known as the Liberator, but don't intend to make one. This gun is good for ONE ROUND ONLY, if that. The firing of the bullet pretty much renders the weapon useless for future firings, due to destruction of the plastic material inside the barrel. And, at thousands of dollars to make a single weapon, this gun is pretty much economically unfeasable.

NOTE2: If you do happen to make this gun, you will be breaking federal law if you do not put a slug of iron or steel that weighs at least 6 ounces somewhere in it, so it can be detected at airports, etc.

I don't believe there are any federal laws prohibiting the manufacture of firearms for personal use.

I could be wrong but would need to the statute that prohibits this.

CaptinSarcastic · May 10, 2013

tererun said:
I wonder if someone claimed the government would start stepping in to protect gun manufacturers from cheapo home made plastic guns? Oh, and who will be one of the main supporters of these regulations to protect manufacturers? It will be the NRA be3cause their job is to protect gun sales, and the second amendment is only an indirect protection they offer.

Of course these printers will drop in price. They will also advance into better materials and technology. We know this will happen because it happens with all technology. It may take a couple of decades, but a couple of decades ago you would have spent thousands on a dot matrix printer and today you would be pissed if you had to lift one to toss it our because the pile of crap was in your way. Something as versatile and useful as 3d printing, which is basically manufacturing, is going to be useful and perhaps in every home in a few decades. The products from it will become better and more durable. the designs made to produce products will become better and more versatile. The programs to make the designs will become better and easier to use. Given the internet there will be no real way for the government to prevent the spread of these designs.

So yes, printable guns are a huge problem for gun manufacturers. Not to mention many other manufacturers who will have to deal with an even cheaper method of production of their products. Prepare to see the republicans and the democrats start going bipartisan on limiting this technology from the start. It is actually a bit dangerous for this useful technology that the first thing people focus on is guns. It looks like they are already building fear about self manufacturing to try and keep these printers prohibitive.

Still, i would imagine by the time this all hits the fan i will be too old to really care much.

Great points!

I have long argued that the moment the gun business comes into conflict with gun rights, NRA gun rights members will finally see who the NRA really stands for. This may be that issue.

CaptinSarcastic · May 10, 2013

obvious Child said:
The real problem is when they start merging 3D printers with computer controlled lathing machines and extruders at a cheap price.

The lathe can build the parts that have major stress easily from blocks of raw steel, the extruders can lay down fibers such as thin glass that then go to the 3D printer for production of things like Carbon Fiber. The 3D printer alone is not a big issue, it's the merging of it with other machines that when paired with design software can produce reliable, relatively affordable, safe firearms. It wouldn't be surprised that such a machine would also have a robotic arm and welder for automatic final assembly. You could literally load the raw materials, press go and get a rifle out in half an hour. But we are not there yet, nor will we be for a while.

Realistically, you can buy every components to any gun, including full auto, except for a fully functional reciever, and you can do it all anonymously and interstate commerce doesn't even touch you. One company is offering 80% complete AR15 receivers, which can be sold as simply components, which you would to have to complete with simple power tools.

It's all out there.

How One Group Is Trying To Skirt Federal Regulations On Its $50 3-D Printed Gun Part | Popular Science

RabidAlpaca · May 10, 2013

obvious Child said:
And if you're a criminal, why would you spend that kind of money on a one shot pistol when you can get a real firearm for much less?

Furthermore, making a plastic pistol on a $500 3D printer is just asking for trouble. Like a hospital bill. When the thing fails in your hand.

For now, the technology is brand new. Give it a few years. Today criminals aren't spending $100 on a printer so that they can print ransom notes, they already have printers.

obvious Child · May 10, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
For now, the technology is brand new. Give it a few years. Today criminals aren't spending $100 on a printer so that they can print ransom notes, they already have printers.

Brand new? Not really. It's been around for at least half a decade.

The materials themselves simply aren't there to make it a better option over simply getting guns how criminals do it now. It's one thing to have a factory capable of producing composite materials that are then formed into guns by computer controlled machines and expertise workers. It's another to take a crappy photopolymer and print it into something that has a decent chance of failure on the first shot.

obvious Child · May 10, 2013

CaptinSarcastic said:
Realistically, you can buy every components to any gun, including full auto, except for a fully functional reciever, and you can do it all anonymously and interstate commerce doesn't even touch you. One company is offering 80% complete AR15 receivers, which can be sold as simply components, which you would to have to complete with simple power tools.

It's all out there.

That a lot of work though. The scenario I gave will be a big draw to large organized crime once the price comes down. Making entirely new weapons from scratch is far less traceable then buying parts and putting them together. And it's much easier. Buy stock glass, some chemicals, blocks of steel and press go. Out comes a batch of rifles. No paper trail.

Deuce · May 10, 2013

SMTA said:
Then there are the nagging issues of that $30,000 3D printer, the required plastic medium, and the CAD software.....

One can buy a lot of guns and ammo for $30,000+.

How many of those guns will make it through an airport scanner?

edit: Not that I'm certain this thing would. Not sure how sensitive their equipment is to plastic items.

A connection between plastic guns and homegrown marijuana

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