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Thread: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    The White House released this list of attempts by President Bush to reform
    Freddie Mae and Freddie Mac since he took office in 2001.
    Unfortunately, Congress did not act on the president's warnings:


    ** 2001

    April: The Administration's FY02 budget declares that the size of Fannie Mae
    and Freddie Mac is "a potential problem," because "financial trouble of a
    large GSE could cause strong repercussions in financial markets, affecting
    Federally insured entities and economic activity."

    ** 2002

    May: The President calls for the disclosure and corporate governance
    principles contained in his 10-point plan for corporate responsibility to
    apply to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. (OMB Prompt Letter to OFHEO, 5/29/02)

    ** 2003

    January: Freddie Mac announces it has to restate financial results for the
    previous three years.

    February: The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO)
    releases a report explaining that "although investors perceive an implicit
    Federal guarantee of [GSE] obligations," "the government has provided no
    explicit legal backing for them." As a consequence, unexpected problems at a
    GSE could immediately spread into financial sectors beyond the housing
    market. ("Systemic Risk: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the Role of OFHEO,"
    OFHEO Report, 2/4/03
    )

    September: Fannie Mae discloses SEC investigation and acknowledges OFHEO's
    review found earnings manipulations.

    September: Treasury Secretary John Snow testifies before the House Financial
    Services Committee to recommend that Congress enact "legislation to create a
    new Federal agency to regulate and supervise the financial activities of our
    housing-related government sponsored enterprises" and set prudent and
    appropriate minimum capital adequacy requirements.

    October: Fannie Mae discloses $1.2 billion accounting error.

    ovember: Council of the Economic Advisers (CEA) Chairman Greg Mankiw
    explains that any "legislation to reform GSE regulation should empower the
    new regulator with sufficient strength and credibility to reduce systemic
    risk." To reduce the potential for systemic instability, the regulator would
    have "broad authority to set both risk-based and minimum capital standards"
    and "receivership powers necessary to wind down the affairs of a troubled
    GSE." (N. Gregory Mankiw, Remarks At The Conference Of State Bank
    Supervisors State Banking Summit And Leadership, 11/6/03
    )

    ** 2004

    February: The President's FY05 Budget again highlights the risk posed by the
    explosive growth of the GSEs and their low levels of required capital, and
    called for creation of a new, world-class regulator: "The Administration has
    determined that the safety and soundness regulators of the housing GSEs lack
    sufficient power and stature to meet their responsibilities, and
    therefore?should be replaced with a new strengthened regulator." (2005
    Budget Analytic Perspectives, pg. 83)


    February: CEA Chairman Mankiw cautions Congress to "not take [the financial
    market's] strength for granted." Again, the call from the Administration was
    to reduce this risk by "ensuring that the housing GSEs are overseen by an
    effective regulator." (N. Gregory Mankiw, Op-Ed, "Keeping Fannie And
    Freddie's House In Order," Financial Times, 2/24/04
    )

    June: Deputy Secretary of Treasury Samuel Bodman spotlights the risk posed
    by the GSEs and called for reform, saying "We do not have a world-class
    system of supervision of the housing government sponsored enterprises
    (GSEs), even though the importance of the housing financial system that the
    GSEs serve demands the best in supervision to ensure the long-term vitality
    of that system. Therefore, the Administration has called for a new, first
    class, regulatory supervisor for the three housing GSEs: Fannie Mae, Freddie
    Mac, and the Federal Home Loan Banking System." (Samuel Bodman, House
    Financial Services Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations Testimony,
    6/16/04)


    ** 2005

    April: Treasury Secretary John Snow repeats his call for GSE reform, saying
    "Events that have transpired since I testified before this Committee in 2003
    reinforce concerns over the systemic risks posed by the GSEs and further
    highlight the need for real GSE reform to ensure that our housing finance
    system remains a strong and vibrant source of funding for expanding
    homeownership opportunities in America? Half-measures will only exacerbate
    the risks to our financial system." (Secretary John W. Snow, "Testimony
    Before The U.S. House Financial Services Committee," 4/13/05
    )

    ** 2007

    July: Two Bear Stearns hedge funds invested in mortgage securities collapse.

    August: President Bush emphatically calls on Congress to pass a reform
    package for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, saying "first things first when it
    comes to those two institutions. Congress needs to get them reformed, get
    them streamlined, get them focused, and then I will consider other options."
    (President George W. Bush, Press Conference, The White House, 8/9/07)

    September: RealtyTrac announces foreclosure filings up 243,000 in August *
    up 115 percent from the year before.

    September: Single-family existing home sales decreases 7.5 percent from the
    previous month * the lowest level in nine years. Median sale price of
    existing homes fell six percent from the year before.

    December: President Bush again warns Congress of the need to pass
    legislation reforming GSEs, saying "These institutions provide liquidity in
    the mortgage market that benefits millions of homeowners, and it is vital
    they operate safely and operate soundly. So I've called on Congress to pass
    legislation that strengthens independent regulation of the GSEs * and
    ensures they focus on their important housing mission. The GSE reform bill
    passed by the House earlier this year is a good start. But the Senate has
    not acted. And the United States Senate needs to pass this legislation
    soon." (President George W. Bush, Discusses Housing, The White House,
    12/6/07)


    ** 2008

    January: Bank of America announces it will buy Countrywide.

    January: Citigroup announces mortgage portfolio lost $18.1 billion in value.

    February: Assistant Secretary David Nason reiterates the urgency of reforms,
    says "A new regulatory structure for the housing GSEs is essential if these
    entities are to continue to perform their public mission successfully."
    (David Nason, Testimony On Reforming GSE Regulation, Senate Committee On
    Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs, 2/7/08
    )

    March: Bear Stearns announces it will sell itself to JPMorgan Chase.

    March: President Bush calls on Congress to take action and "move forward
    with reforms on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They need to continue to
    modernize the FHA, as well as allow State housing agencies to issue tax-free
    bonds to homeowners to refinance their mortgages." (President George W.
    Bush, Remarks To The Economic Club Of New York, New York, NY, 3/14/08
    )

    April: President Bush urges Congress to pass the much needed legislation and
    "modernize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. [There are] constructive things
    Congress can do that will encourage the housing market to correct quickly by
    ? helping people stay in their homes." (President George W. Bush, Meeting
    With Cabinet, the White House, 4/14/08
    )

    May: President Bush issues several pleas to Congress to pass legislation
    reforming Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac before the situation deteriorates
    further.

    "Americans are concerned about making their mortgage payments and keeping
    their homes. Yet Congress has failed to pass legislation I have repeatedly
    requested to modernize the Federal Housing Administration that will help
    more families stay in their homes, reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to
    ensure they focus on their housing mission, and allow State housing agencies
    to issue tax-free bonds to refinance sub-prime loans." (President George W.
    Bush, Radio Address, 5/3/08
    )

    "[T]he government ought to be helping creditworthy people stay in their
    homes. And one way we can do that * and Congress is making progress on this
    is the reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. That reform will come with a
    strong, independent regulator." (President George W. Bush, Meeting With The
    Secretary Of The Treasury, the White House, 5/19/08
    )

    "Congress needs to pass legislation to modernize the Federal Housing
    Administration, reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to ensure they focus on
    their housing mission, and allow State housing agencies to issue tax-free
    bonds to refinance subprime loans." (President George W. Bush, Radio
    Address, 5/31/08
    )

    June: As foreclosure rates continued to rise in the first quarter, the
    President once again asks Congress to take the necessary measures to address
    this challenge, saying "we need to pass legislation to reform Fannie Mae and
    Freddie Mac." (President George W. Bush, Remarks At Swearing In Ceremony For
    Secretary Of Housing And Urban Development, Washington, D.C., 6/6/08)

    July: Congress heeds the President's call for action and passes reform of
    Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as it becomes clear that the institutions are
    failing.

    In 2005-- Senator John McCain partnered with three other Senate Republicans
    to reform the governmentıs involvement in lending.
    Democrats blocked this reform, too.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Oh, it's not all bad:

    Jobless claims fall to 5-year low - May. 2, 2013

    No, you appeal to an old white man who talks to an empty chair, an actor famous for fake fighting on a television series, and the backwoods racist Jethros who spend more money on beer and bug zappers than on their trailer home.

    Aren't generalizations based on a few fun?
    LOL, you guys go ahead and waste your time destroying the economy and repeating these nonsensical stero-types.

    And BTW, those "Jethro's" are far more likely to be Democrats. I mean you guys DID threaten to Filibuster the Civil Rights Act.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    I was just about to post that. Construction is way down right now, but we had hell of a winter across the nation. We went from twiddling our thumbs to breakneck speed overnight. It is nice to be busy again.

    And we started hiring again. White and Blue.
    I did general contracting for the last three years and you could see it picking up in that time. It was a lot of small repairs that people had obviously put off for a while and then the smaller repairs gave way to bigger repairs that gave way to additions and renovations. Now I work at a large plumbing supply store and it's picking up there quite a bit. I didn't replace anyone they just brought me on because of the uptick in biz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    a Obama voter is a idiot.
    Hilarious. And I'm nowhere near a grammar nazi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Hilarious.
    Well ROB, they're either AN idiot, or they're so ideologically bind and devoid of humility that they are going to back a ideology that's responsible for 20 million more people on the food stamp roles, a rise in poverty to record levels, consumer confidence at 30 year lows, disability roles doubling and record debt and deficit as our Central Bank is stuck on stupid forced into perpetual QE.

    So go ahead, cherry pick my mistakes, but one things clear, you'll stay 10 miles away from the issues because you have nothing substantial to add.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Well ROB, they're either AN idiot, or they're so ideologically bind and devoid of humility that they are going to back a ideology that's responsible for 20 million more people on the food stamp roles, a rise in poverty to record levels, consumer confidence at 30 year lows, disability roles doubling and record debt and deficit as our Central Bank is stuck on stupid forced into perpetual QE.

    So go ahead, cherry pick my mistakes, but one things clear, you'll stay 10 miles away from the issues because you have nothing substantial to add.
    You apparently don't read my posts much. If you just read the ones where I reply to your posts, they tend to be a mirror image of the "substantial" content I'm replying to. I mean who could possibly argue with the deep "substantial" statements like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton
    Ah I see, your problem is that you have NO IDEA of what the hell it is your'e talking about. But then again, your'e a Liberal for a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton
    Right. No we don't appeal to the Beyonce and Jay-Z idiots, the "Obama-Phones Lady", the racist who vote for him because he's black, the perpetually stoned, drunk and addicted low lifes who believed his lies.

    No, by definition a Obama voter is a idiot. Low information, gullible and suceptable to a corrupt ideology.
    That's some real deep stuff there man.

    The stuff of yours that actually has some content in it is cut and paste ideologically driven bull that so many people have debunked a zillion times that laughing at it is much more fun and even more productive than trying to persuade you of anything that wasn't spoon-fed to you by Glenn Beck or Roger Ailes. So go ahead on fixing the facts around your preset conclusions so that your perfect world of looking down you nose on anyone who doesn't buy your jargon doesn't fall apart.
    Last edited by poweRob; 05-02-13 at 10:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

  7. #47
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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Ah I see, your problem is that you have NO IDEA of what the hell it is your'e talking about. But then again, your'e a Liberal for a reason.
    No, you don't see the problem and that's is your biggest problem.

    First, the sub-prime bubble was built exclusively by Clinton's 1995 Affordable Home Owners Strategy as it lowered capital requirements on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to 3% and put them under the regulatory authority of HUD which enforced a climbing scale of quota's. That is the percentage of loans purchased by the GSE's HAD to be low quality and by 2000 it was up to 50%.
    In spite of not requiring a down payment, few low income earners could afford a mortgage in the 1990s because of the high interest rates applied to the loan. Do you know what the interest rates on a 30 year loan in 1995 was? It was around 8%.

    In 1994 Clinton signed the Riegle Neal Act, which tied a banks CRA score to whether or not they could acquire new acquisitions, grow into new territories. Clinton's 1995 Affordable Home Owners Strategy also beefed up CRA requirements by now forcing targets implementation on CRA loans. For our Liberal friends that means for the first time since the 1997 CRA was initiated, banks HAD TO loan to people in the communities they served who were at or below 80% of the median income rate IN THAT COMMUNITY. Thus began the sub-prime loan.
    No, it doesn't mean that at all. The Riegle Neal Act simply allowed a bank that was adequately capitalized and managed, to merge or purchase a similar bank in another state.....

    ACQUISITION OF BANKS- The Board may approve an application under this section by a bank holding company that is adequately capitalized and adequately managed to acquire control of, or acquire all or substantially all of the assets of, a bank located in a State other than the home State of such bank holding company, without regard to whether such transaction is prohibited under the law of any State.Text of H.R. 3841 (103rd): Riegle-Neal Interstate Banking and Branching Efficiency Act of 1994 (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

    Janet Reno to banks after the Affordable Home Owners imitative was implemented..." For those who thumb their nose at us we promise rigorous enforcement", " 'No loan is exempt, no bank is immune,' Hmmmm....
    It's the Attorney General's job to enforce the laws made by congress and as such it was Reno's job to go after people who violated the law. Why is that a problem for you, Fenton?

    There CRA scores were published so Community organizers like Obama and ACORN could file law suites and threaten them in general if they did not roll over. The National Bureau of Economic Research looked into the matter...Did the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) Lead to Risky Lending?
    Since it helped expose and end the practice of RED LINING then I'm all for it. Black people are US citizens and deserve the same Constitutional protection to exercise their rights as white people do.

    Redlining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But aside from that Clinton needed criminals he could count on so from 1993 to 1998 he replaced all of Fannie and Freddie's top Executives and over half of the board members. One in particular who was the CEO of Fannie Mae misreported billions in earnings so he could meet executive target bonus's. In 2000 the HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo pledged 2 TRILLION dollars to buy up affordable home loans. He's speaking for the corrupted GSEs since Fannie and Freddie were under HUD Regulatory control to purchase and increasing number of toxic debt by way of sub-prime, Alt-A loans.
    Bush was president for eight years and he had six years of GOP "rubber stamp" controlled Senate and House. The housing bubble actually started under their watch, so instead of making it worse, why didn't they fix the problem when they had the chance? Because they were too busy trying to bankrupt the country, thats why.

    You guys gave him a Governorship for his stupidity....
    Pffft, if you think thats bad you should get a load of Bush's HUD appointment.....
    Jackson Resigns as HUD Secretary - Washington Post


    In 1997 Fannie securitized it's first sub-prime loan. Prior to 1997 Fannie and Freddie wouldn't touch CRA, Alt-A trash with a 10 foot pole, it was against their charter to buy bad debt, and for almost 70 years it worked, until their charter and mission was changed by the Democrats and they started buying, bundling bad with good and started pushing toxic mortgage Backed Securities into the world Financial Markets to fund the new secondary market. They were AAA rated because American Treasuries were triple rated and it was understood these securities would be backed by the US Treasury if something happened.
    And yet, Democrats didn't control congress in 1997, Republicans did.

    Clinton's appointee Jamie Gorelick in 2000 at a banking Congress in San Fransisco.." We want to buy your CRA loans because it helps us meet our affordable housing mandate " " We will buy them from your portfolios, and turn them into Securities "

    But, since the Democrats forced the banks to lower their standards, and as they understood that these loans over enough time would bankrupt any lender, they realized in order to make available 6 trillion dollars in easy credit backed by the tax payer, they would need a guaranteed BUYER of those loans. Well Fannie bought over 70 % of Country-Wide's loans, as Country-Wide gave Democrat politicians like CHRIS DODD inside sweetheart deals on personal loans. The CEO of Country-Wide, Angelo Mozilo, was a corrupt Democrat, selling worthless mortgages to another corrupt Democrat, Franklin Raines.
    Too bad for you because history will tell a different story......

    "...The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission (FCIC) completed its analysis [15] of the financial crisis and found that the GSE's "contributed to the crisis, but were not a primary cause."....The FCIC found that the GSE's were late to the subprime lending game, entering the market in a substantial way in 2005.....The GSE's followed rather than led the race to purchase subprime loan securities. .....The GSE's increased their involvement in the subprime securitization market because they were significantly losing market share and were feeling less relevant in the mortgage lending marketplace..... In accordance with the mission of Fannie Mae to enable home ownership by a greater proportion of the population, Franklin Raines, while Chairman and CEO, began a pilot program in 1999 to issue bank loans to individuals with low to moderate income, and to ease credit requirements on loans that Fannie Mae purchased from banks. Raines promoted the program saying that it would allow consumers who were "a notch below what our current underwriting has required" to get home loans. The move was intended in part to increase the number of minority and low income home owners.

    While the Fannie Mae pilot program described above sought to expand housing opportunities for under-served consumers, these loans did not result in major losses and performed significantly better than private label subprime loans. Phil Angelides, the Chair of the FCIC commented that ". . .the FCIC analyzed the performance of roughly 25 million mortgages outstanding at the end of each year from 2006 to 2009, and found that delinquency rates for the loans that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac purchased or guaranteed were substantially lower than for mortgages securitized by other financial firms. This holds true even for loans to borrowers with similar credit scores or down payments.

    For example, data compiled by the FCIC for a subset of borrowers with scores below 660 shows that by the end of 2008, far fewer GSE mortgages were seriously delinquent than non-GSE securitized mortgages: 6.2 percent versus 28.3 percent." [14] Although under Raines, Fannie Mae invested in some securities backed by subprime loans, it didn't start buying subprime and Alt-A loans directly (and bundling them into securities) until late 2004 after the accounting scandal. Purchasing of subprime and alt-A mortgages expanded under the guidance of Raines's successor Daniel H. Mudd....read
    14. ^ a b Angelides, Phil (August 3, 2011). "Fannie, Freddie and the Financial Crisis: Phil Angelides". Bloomberg.
    15.^ Get the Report : Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission
    16.^ Holmes, Steven A. (September 30, 1999). "Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending". The New York Times. Retrieved May 2, 2010.
    17.^ The Real Culprits In This Meltdown, Investors Business Daily, September 15, 2008. [3]
    18.^ Fannie's Perilous Pursuit of Subprime Loans, Washington Post, August 19, 2008.[4]
    19.^ Blame Fannie Mae and Congress For the Credit Mess, Wall Street Journal, September 23, 2008.[5]

    Whoa ho ho, that just tossed your entire pathetic biased argument right into the garbage...where it belongs.

    Oh yea, we need to ignore all of that, because corrupt Democrats who ripped off the American public for TRILLIONS as over 5 trillion of GSE debt sits on the Treasury's books.

    Time for you to educate yourself, just in general. The one thing common with people on the left is their lack of knowledge and that their susceptible to nonsense and dishonest narratives.
    I know that you don't know as much as you think you do.

    Bush, upon election almost immediately tried to create a regulatory panel to oversee Fannie and Freddie's corruption. New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae - NYTimes.com
    Did you read past the first paragraph of the NYT article that you posted, Fenton? Apparently not or you probably wouldn't have posted it. It says that Bush's proposal was a joke and his Sec of Treasury, John W. Snow recommended to congress that the President have his authority to appoint directors be "eliminated"......ROTFL

    "...Treasury Secretary John W. Snow told the House Financial Services Committee in an appearance with Housing Secretary Mel Martinez, who also backed the plan..<snip>.. said that Congress should eliminate the power of the president to appoint directors to the companies...<snip>....

    "...The administration's proposal, which was endorsed in large part today by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, would not repeal the significant government subsidies granted to the two companies. And it does not alter the implicit guarantee that Washington will bail the companies out if they run into financial difficulty; that perception enables them to issue debt at significantly lower rates than their competitors. Nor would it remove the companies' exemptions from taxes and antifraud provisions of federal securities laws....read
    New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae - NYTimes.com

    The Democrats weren't having it, and 27 of them signed a letter warning Bush not to screw with Fannie and Freddie.
    Turns out they were right...Bush had done enough damage to last for generations.

    Read it and weep, Fenton....
    http://fcic-static.law.stanford.edu/...onclusions.pdf
    Last edited by Moot; 05-03-13 at 02:41 AM.

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Obamacare hasn't kicked in yet and some states aren't even going to participate. So if healthcare is having an impact then it's probably because so many people still don't have health insurance and healthcare costs are still skyrocketing.
    For folks on this site who do not know ( many I am afraid) Zandi has been an unofficial mouthpiece for the administration for years. That being said, not sure there is enough evidence about a spring swoon just yet, the market does not seem to be indicating one.

    It is silly to think that healthcare is not already on the minds of CEOs and business owners when the law comes into effect in eight months. Makes sense that people would be looking to find ways to get under the under 50 people bar for small companies and under the 30 hour bar for part-timers. When do you think people will start working on this problem, december 31???

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    For folks on this site who do not know ( many I am afraid) Zandi has been an unofficial mouthpiece for the administration for years. That being said, not sure there is enough evidence about a spring swoon just yet, the market does not seem to be indicating one.

    It is silly to think that health care is not already on the minds of CEOs and business owners when the law comes into effect in eight months. Makes sense that people would be looking to find ways to get under the under 50 people bar for small companies and under the 30 hour bar for part-timers. When do you think people will start working on this problem, december 31???
    Only time will tell if there's a spring swoon. I couldn't find a parking space at the Home Depot the other day. I take that as good sign. But if CEOs want to live in fear then they're probably not that good of businessmen in the first place. But I suspect most are more interested in building their companies than letting them stagnate or suffer losses because they're too cheap to let their employees have health insurance. The uber conservative state that I live in set up an insurance exchange in 2009 mainly because Utah has an unusually large number of small businesses and self employed and a lot of them don't have health insurance for themselves let alone their handful of employees. They seem to want Obamacare probably because they know it's really Romneycare. lol

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    Re: Spring Slowdown Paints Ugly Picture For Jobs: ADP

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Gerrymandering aside, 2010 wasn't a national election year and it was at the height of the tea party movement. But now that the tea party has proven themselves too extreme, do you have any charts for 2012?
    I linked the most recent data I have seen. I also linked data that went back quite a bit.

    Do you have data from the 2012 election proving otherwise? I don't.
    Last edited by Blue_State; 05-03-13 at 07:19 AM.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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