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Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Gimmesometruth said:
I asked this earlier, was Rosa Parks a "significant" person before she refused to sit in the back of the bus?
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Lets slow the role on the Rosa Parks comparison. The reality is, like it or not, actions and people within the general public are going to be viewed differently by the public than someone in sports. This isn't just in terms of being gay, this is about MOST things.

It's also telling that when there is a clear analog able to be used in sports you forgo it because that doesn't fit your argument and thus you go for a massive reach by latching onto Rosa Parks.

I think he's more likely to be Charles Follis (fun fact, born in my little home county) than Jackie Robinson. And again, nothing wrong with that. But in terms of impact, specifically lasting, Charles doesn't hold a candle to Jackie. That doesn't mean his "first" was meaningless to those who knew of it at the time, to himself, or to his sport.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
I'm not really. It's just that I doubt that some mediocre player from a dying sport is going to have any lasting impact on sports. People are jumping up and down claiming some huge impact already, but when you ask them about it they can't actually quantify the impact.

Also, it's 2013, it's time to stop being shocked that there are gay people in the world.
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Again, the premise that this is going to have a "lasting impact" along with the assumption that it can be "quantified" within a few days.....all from someone continuing to denigrate the player and the sport......while saying we should all get over it.

Wow, my head just spins trying to keep my score card updated.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Gimmesometruth said:
Wow, my head just spins trying to keep my score card updated.
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Is that why you're making Rosa Parks references?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
Lets slow the role on the Rosa Parks comparison.
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It wasn't a comparison of her to him, it was an observation that trying to predict a persons effect on social change from their starting point is a bit silly.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Random thoughts...

1) I never heard of him until a couple days ago. Honestly. Granted, I'm not a huge basketball fan, but I know who most of the top level elite players are. He, apparently, isn't one of them.

2) Altering the sports landscape? Meh. I doubt it. This isn't like skin color that cannot be hidden. There have, no doubt, been gay players since the beginning of time.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
You're not equating Collins to Rosa Parks, are you?
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No, I'm not, as I just explained. you missed all of the points
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
Is that why you're making Rosa Parks references?
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And you avoided the points once again. I guess they were right on target.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
False. I have been very consistent in pointing out that things which are not huge deals do not become "topics of national conversation". The issue here is that there seems to be a significant confusion on what is or is not a topic of national conversation. I believe that a topic of national conversation is very different than something which is known of or mentioned in passing nationwide.
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Making it larger doesn't make it any more correct Tucker.

top·ic
/ˈtäpik/Noun
1.A matter dealt with in a text, discourse, or conversation; a subject.
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na·tion·al
/ˈnaSHənəl/Adjective
Of or relating to a nation; common to or characteristic of a whole nation.
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con·ver·sa·tion
/ˌkänvərˈsāSHən/Noun
1.The informal exchange of ideas by spoken words.
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Seems to me you're saying that a subject that is common to the whole nation in terms of their exchange of ideas [stated] by spoken [or written] words.

Sorry, but I'm seeing in those definitions suggests the level of importance those ideas need to have...or the AMOUNT of words that need to be spoken...or whether or not someone finds it "serious". I'm giving you a bit of leeway in the notion you're not suggesting that it needs to literally be the entire nation, and rather just a sizable amoutn of the population, as I can assume you don't believe everyone across the entire US has engaged in a discussion about this.

YOU stated your definition of what determines a "huge deal", got called for it, tried to move hte goal posts, and are now trying to talk people down by using BIG LETTERS. Sorry Tuck, try that grade school method on someone else, because you've debated me enough to know it's not going to have an impact on me.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
Making it larger doesn't make it any more correct Tucker.
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Lets keep the conversation on topic.

The topic is not Tucker.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Gimmesometruth said:
And you avoided the points once again. I guess they were right on target.
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No, they weren't applicable. I wasn't the one making claim of factual impact already.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
Making it larger doesn't make it any more correct Tucker.
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And pretending that the word order doesn't affect the meaning of the term doesn't make it any less correct.







Seems to me you're saying that a subject that is common to the whole nation in terms of their exchange of ideas [stated] by spoken [or written] words.
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The adjective did not describe the subject, it described the exchange of ideas. That's why word order, matters. National subject of conversation =/= national conversation about a subject.

Something that is a national subject of conversation can be trivial, something that is a subject of national conversation cannot be.

YOU stated your definition of what determines a "huge deal", got called for it, tried to move hte goal posts, and are now trying to talk people down by using BIG LETTERS.
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You failed to understand the importance of the word order. Your failure to understand the import of something does not mean I moved the goal posts.

Sorry Tuck, try that grade school method on someone else, because you've debated me enough to know it's not going to have an impact on me.
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I use that "grade school" stuff on people who choose not to understand things, although I am surprised you are the person doing it this time.

I've debated you enough to know you know better than to accuse me of a fallacy as a way to excuse the reading comprehension errors of others.

I use words in a precise fashion for a reason. I am not to blame if you chose to ignore the precision of my words.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
And boom goes the dynamite. Its individuals, not a national conversation.
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Boom goes the dynamite, really?

Tucker, what makes up a nation? Individuals yes? Please, how does a NATION have a conversation other than the INDIVIDUALS within it conversing?

You sound like a poster from This thread having a coniption fit over the fact that I referred to a group as an individual.

Let me use the same type of analogy you happily jumped on board with in THAT thread.

You can refer to the Chicago Bears as a group. You can also refer to the "players" of the berars. And in both you could be referencing the same thing. If I say "The bears sucked in pass protection this year" and "Individuals on the bears sucked in pass protection this year" there is nothing inherently inconsistent or divisie between those two comments.

Your "Boom" was more of a bust.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
No, they weren't applicable. I wasn't the one making claim of factual impact already.
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Yes you are, you are denigrating the player, the sport and the possible impact now and in the future.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Gimmesometruth said:
Lets keep the conversation on topic.

The topic is not Tucker.
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He wasn't making me the subject. He was discussing my debate strategy. That's a perfectly reasonable tactic.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Gimmesometruth said:
Yes you are, you are denigrating the player, the sport and the possible impact now and in the future.
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I am making claim of factual impact already? Well perhaps you can quote that.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
Boom goes the dynamite, really?

Tucker, what makes up a nation? Individuals yes? Please, how does a NATION have a conversation other than the INDIVIDUALS within it conversing?
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Again, word order matters, despite your decision to ignore it.


Let me use the same type of analogy you happily jumped on board with in THAT thread.

You can refer to the Chicago Bears as a group. You can also refer to the "players" of the berars. And in both you could be referencing the same thing. If I say "The bears sucked in pass protection this year" and "Individuals on the bears sucked in pass protection this year" there is nothing inherently inconsistent or divisie between those two comments.
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You are demonstrating an ability to comprehend what you read here, so why do you disregard that ability when it comes to the term "topic of national conversation (hint: That is not "national topic of conversation", despite your repeated attempts to give it the same meaning as that term)

Your "Boom" was more of a bust.
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Your failure to recognize the effect of word order on meaning has done nothing to affect my "boom".
 
Res gay, altering the landscape of sports

Tucker Case said:
And boom goes the dynamite. Its individuals, not a national conversation. Thank you for admitting that you were wrong. I like to pay attention to the words that are present. Why do you ignore them?

And Zyph, What Dr C did was move the goal posts. See how he moved form "topic of national conversation" to "individuals" without acknowledging the key difference between those things?
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I'm not following
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
And pretending that the word order doesn't affect the meaning of the term doesn't make it any less correct.
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Please then...explain with definitions what it is your "order" (by the way, I used the order YOU provided. Forgive me for taking your typed words to be in the order you typed them) is stating? You see, I actually provided definitions of words to explain what it appears you're saying (since I know you're big on technical definitions as part of an argument). If it's something else, please...do tell us. I'm extremely interested to see where seriouesness of the conversation or amount of words stated are part of the definitions since you're now adding that as criteria.

You suggest I have reading comprehension issues. Please, back it up with an explanation of substance rather than simple pontification and bluster. I provided the definition basis for my understanding of the words you wrote in gigantic script. You disagree...lets see yo uback it up with something.

If you meant "national topic of conversation" instead of "Topic of National Conversation" then why did you write the letter in 40 point script instead of the former? Why did you write the order of the words all these different times:

Tucker Case said:
Things that become a topic of national conversation
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Tucker Case said:
Pseudo-events are not the "topic of national conversation"
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Tucker Case said:
False. I have been very consistent in pointing out that things which are not huge deals do not become "topics of national conversation".
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Tucker Case said:
See how he moved form "topic of national conversation"
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If your were suggesting that the SUBJECT matter somehow had to be "national" rather than the scope of the conversation, then you should've placed the adjective in the correct location prior to topic. Don't blame me for misreading the words you THINK in your head and instead actually going off the ones you typed repeatedly.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyph: You've hit on teh key to your misunderstanding with your connection to the group thing.

In order to be a national conversation, the conversation must be engaged in as a nation.

If every player on a team has a discussion about an irrelveant topic individually amongst themselves, that is not a team discussion. For example, if every player on a basketball team, at some point, discusses Kim K's vag, did they have a team discussion about Kim K's vag? No, of course not. A team discussion is a different thing than a discussion which all of the members of a team had. A team discussion relates to the team, for one.

This national conversation is being had AS a nation, and it relates to the nation (our views, our prejudices, our acceptance, etc.).

That's why there was no moving of the goal posts by me. I've stayed consistent in my understanding of a national conversation, which also happens to be the correct understanding of that term.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
If your were suggesting that the SUBJECT matter somehow had to be "national" rather than the scope of the conversation, then you should've placed the adjective in the correct location prior to topic. Don't blame me for misreading the words you THINK in your head and instead actually going off the ones you typed repeatedly.
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I just explained it further in post #619, but the simple fact is that a national conversation must be a conversation which is had AS a nation about the nation, much like a team conversation has to be done AS a team, about the team.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

By that definition what you describe is an impossability.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
I am making claim of factual impact already? Well perhaps you can quote that.
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No, I said you were denigrating the social impact of his actions now and in the future.
 
Rehat he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

Tucker Case said:
I just explained it further in post #619, but the simple fact is that a national conversation must be a conversation which is had AS a nation about the nation, much like a team conversation has to be done AS a team, about the team.
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The distinction between a pseudo event and a real event is more dependent on actual level of importance. One of the examples of a pseudo event is the presidential debates. Where we know nothing new is going to said and that it will be a general rehashing of campaign material. Clearly "as a nation" it will be something heavily discussed. But its over all significance is still pretty low
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
And boom goes the dynamite. Its individuals, not a national conversation. Thank you for admitting that you were wrong. I like to pay attention to the words that are present. Why do you ignore them?

And Zyph, What Dr C did was move the goal posts. See how he moved form "topic of national conversation" to "individuals" without acknowledging the key difference between those things?
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I see what you are arguing now: No, that is not was I was referring to at all. My point was that a large collection of individuals might find importance in the topic. But that doesn't translate to a topic being of importance to us collectively. Issues on national defense are important to us collectively, because they do have an impact on our lives, regardless of how we perceive them as individuals.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Asante Samuel posed a good question. Why should athletes announce their sexuality? Should ESPN and SI do a spread every time a straight guy announces he likes girls? or are we gonna discriminate there?
 
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