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Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
Far from definite. If he was that valuable for that reason he would've been on the roster of some western conference playoff contender rather than a bottom dwelling eastern conference laughing stock like the BulletsWizards.
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He got traded to the wizards after signing with the Celtics. How was he supposed to get on a playoff contender from there?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Hicup said:
Well what is the impact? Please tell us what it is? You say so many have come out in support of Collins, which I assume means that they accept his gayness and value his courage, or something to that affect; we all assume this is what you mean by impact, and that it is generally positive? Your attempts to avoid this question with such rigidity and obfuscation is telling. What is this something that has been impacted? You haven't so much as provided anything in the way of substance, in fact your entire premise is devoid of substance rendering it almost completely useless.

Tim-
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like i said go back and read the thread because you assume wrong, acceptance was never brought up. Who is we all? LMAO
I avoid zero questions i infact gave 4 reasons why it has an impact :shrug:
next time read the thread and you wont look so foolish. LMAO i stated them and restated them and people in the NBA also echoed them. Its funny you think these tactics work LOL

Bottom line the NBA was impacted, this fact will not change, anything else you wanna make up or argue or invebt feel free. It wont change the fact the article points out or my statements :D
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Anagram said:
He got traded to the wizards after signing with the Celtics. How was he supposed to get on a playoff contender from there?
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Better than average I'd guess since Wizards trade off all their best players. :)
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Mason66 said:
Because the timing is suspect. He came out at a time when he had nothing to lose and everything to gain. If he had something at risk, this story might have been news worthy but certainly not at the level it has been.
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Why the **** would that matter? Is it only a good thing if he's put at risk? Would it help if some crazy anti-gay psychopath tried to kill him? Would that make it more palatable?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Anagram said:
His skills have not diminished much since than.
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so why then, did the playoff bound Celtics, trade him away to arguably one of the worst teams in the league in February?

When Collins gave Celtic's coach Rivers a courtesy call to let him know he was going to "come out" (odd enough in itself)

Rivers commented:

“I wish you could have gotten me more rebounds. Because at the end of the day, that’s all I really care about.”
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/s...-celtics-rally-around-jason-collins.html?_r=0
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
You claimed facts all the time "factually"...remember that? You used it a lot. There is a factual impact; meaning measured. All I ask for is the true measurement. I don't need to write a letter, as I am not the one making assumption. Merely stating that what you are deriving from words is not the only explanation for the words stated. And since there are multiple possible causes for the statement, from true support to attempting to avoid a PR nightmare, you cannot claim factual information from it without supporting evidence. And that's what you lack here. So every time you say "factual" and "LMAO the owners say X", you are making an assumption. You are claiming knowledge from a system that has not been examined enough to draw actual knowledge from. You assume the owners and players are saying what they are saying based on true acceptance and support of Collins. But it may not be. It could very well be cherry picking of player's comments (i.e. not publishing any dissenting opinion) and coaches and owners playing the PC game. Also a valid explanation. Without further evidence and measurement, you cannot say which one is actually true ("factual").

You may state that in your opinion the owners and coaches are being sincere and that already more players are accepting of homosexuals on the court, and that would be in line with statements from players, coaches, and owners. But you cannot at this point profess knowledge. It is NOT factual at this point until there is more evidence.
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sorry doesnt need measured that is false :shrug:
the people and reality IN THE NBA is what makes ti fact. You opinion and wanting to see scientific stats is meaningless LMAO
you factually did make an assumption this thread and your words prove that fact. But please state another lie LOL
Facts disagree with you, you assuming that all the statements are made up and lies is the only assumptions. You fail again.

This has factually impacted the NBA. :shrug: nothing to debate with that statement alone. Talk about all the other things you want, they dont matter.

again theres no logical reason to think otherwise with the facts in this thread, on tv, on the internet and that statements made by the people in the nba. But good luck, let me know how that letter turns out.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Mason66 said:
Can I still hater redheads or is that not allowed anymore?
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you can have feelings of hate whoever you want, thats allowed :shrug:
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

I'll be honest that I'm a bit biased here. Watching Collins help lead my Hawks over the Magic when everyone said they couldn't has been one of the highlights of basketball for me over the last few years. I've actually had an argument over whether he should be in the NBA before he ever came out.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
Why the **** would that matter? Is it only a good thing if he's put at risk? Would it help if some crazy anti-gay psychopath tried to kill him? Would that make it more palatable?
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I think the point of that is saying "if he HAD something to risk", not if he is put at risk. Meaning, if he were a Michael Jordan and coming out could cost him everything, it would be more believable that he was coming out as an act to raise and encourage acceptance of homosexual athletes. But because he's pretty much straddling the fence of being cut out of the league due to not being that great of a player, using this card seems more suspect and could be that he's trying to drum up publicity and support in a way that would help him continue his NBA career when his skill alone would be insufficient.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
Tebow doesn't strike me as a good teammate, actually. He'd help teams more if he switched positions, but he refuses to move away from a position he is not suited for. I'd also bet that Kyle Orton was not a fan of him as a teammate.
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point being....they don't pay professional athletes to be "good teammates". How many coaches/managers do you think sit around discussing trades and say "You know what we really need? A guy who is a good teammate"
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Anagram said:
He got traded to the wizards after signing with the Celtics. How was he supposed to get on a playoff contender from there?
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if he was that valuable, the playoff contending Celtics wouldhave kept him, instead of trading him to the Wizards in February
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Anagram said:
He got traded to the wizards after signing with the Celtics. How was he supposed to get on a playoff contender from there?
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The notion that a playoff team jettisoned him in a trade doesn't exactly help the case that he WILL be picked up next year. There's a possability of it, without a doubt...but I think saying it like it was a definite is quite a bit of a reach. His playing time is half of what it was, he's getting significantly older, and as you point out a playoff bound team sent him packing in a trade and a rather piss poor team like the wizards wasn't interested in bringing him back.

As I said, I'm not going to be shocked if he's playing next year. But you were making it out like it was a definite notion that he'd be picked up to play again next year and that's just not a reasonable assumption to make about a 34 year old end of the bench role player. It's a possability, but far from a certainty.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

OscarB63 said:
so why then, did the playoff bound Celtics, trade him away to arguably one of the worst teams in the league in February?
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Because when the Wizards offer you Jordan Crawford for an injured guard and a backup center you take it, regardless of how good the backup center is. I'm not saying he deserves to be an all-star, but I would be thrilled with him as the backup center on my team.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

OscarB63 said:
point being....they don't pay professional athletes to be "good teammates". How many coaches/managers do you think sit around discussing trades and say "You know what we really need? A guy who is a good teammate"
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Depends on the needs of the team. If I'm an NBA GM, I might look for a guy who sets up screens very well, plays solid defense, is willing to foul out when needed, sets up plays, etc. That would be an example of looking for a guy who is a good teammate.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
The notion that a playoff team jettisoned him in a trade doesn't exactly help the case that he WILL be picked up next year. There's a possability of it, without a doubt...but I think saying it like it was a definite is quite a bit of a reach. His playing time is half of what it was, he's getting significantly older, and as you point out a playoff bound team sent him packing in a trade and a rather piss poor team like the wizards wasn't interested in bringing him back.

As I said, I'm not going to be shocked if he's playing next year. But you were making it out like it was a definite notion that he'd be picked up to play again next year and that's just not a reasonable assumption to make about a 34 year old end of the bench role player. It's a possability, but far from a certainty.
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I think he would've been one of the first end of the bench veterans to be signed next year. The Celtics only traded him because they needed backcourt help when Rondo and Barbossa went down.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Anagram said:
I'll be honest that I'm a bit biased here. Watching Collins help lead my Hawks over the Magic when everyone said they couldn't has been one of the highlights of basketball for me over the last few years. I've actually had an argument over whether he should be in the NBA before he ever came out.
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Which kind of highlights the first point I made when I was (apparently homophobicly, who knew) mentioning his stats...that even without coming out there was a legitimate shot he's not in the NBA next year. I get having a soft spot for a player that did well for your team and is oft overlooked...but that doesn't change the reality that that suggesting he's definitely playing next year is a bit of a faith based reach.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
Why would it matter?
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Conviction and integrity. We'll see how all this pans out; but it could certainly lessen the impact of such a move if it were being done in a way to subvert the professionalism of the game. Which would be the case if (and I'm saying if, I don't know and I'm making no claim to knowledge) this were a publicity stunt aimed at Collins obtaining a contract and continuing his career in the NBA when otherwise he'd be out of the league.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
Which kind of highlights the first point I made when I was (apparently homophobicly, who knew) mentioning his stats...that even without coming out there was a legitimate shot he's not in the NBA next year.
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I'm just saying that his stats hide the value of having a guy like Jason Collins. And I won that argument, he signed with the Celtics that year. I'm confident that he would've been signed even before he came out.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Anagram said:
Because when the Wizards offer you Jordan Crawford for an injured guard and a backup center you take it, regardless of how good the backup center is. I'm not saying he deserves to be an all-star, but I would be thrilled with him as the backup center on my team.
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so you're telling me the '85 Celtics would've traded away Bill Walton or Robert Parrish before going into the playoff?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

OscarB63 said:
point being....they don't pay professional athletes to be "good teammates". How many coaches/managers do you think sit around discussing trades and say "You know what we really need? A guy who is a good teammate"
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End of the bench guys, or guys down as your 50th man on the roster in football...yeah "a good teammate" is a quality you're looking for. Someone who will do the job his particular role calls for, do it without complaint or problem, and provide an asset to the team.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

OscarB63 said:
so you're telling me the '85 Celtics would've traded away Bill Walton or Robert Parrish before going into the playoff?
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If they desperately needed backcourt help the way the 2013 Celtics did they probably should've traded away Bill Walton for a player of Crawford's caliber. Obviously not Parish.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Oh, and I don't know if some in the thread don't watch the NBA....but having a big guy at the end of your bench that racks up fouls, especially at the end of games, but doesn't give up "and 1's" while doing it is a somewhat valuable spot.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
I think the point of that is saying "if he HAD something to risk", not if he is put at risk. Meaning, if he were a Michael Jordan and coming out could cost him everything, it would be more believable that he was coming out as an act to raise and encourage acceptance of homosexual athletes. But because he's pretty much straddling the fence of being cut out of the league due to not being that great of a player, using this card seems more suspect and could be that he's trying to drum up publicity and support in a way that would help him continue his NBA career when his skill alone would be insufficient.
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So the argument is that his decision to come out is not important because he is not the greatest basketball player EVAH and it doesn't matter because he will not be destitute for coming out.....if this had made him a martyr then it would be significant, but since he is alive...meh.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
Conviction and integrity.
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So the only way you'll be happy is if he goes back in time to 2001 and announces he is gay then? Or should he just remain quiet and leave it to the next guy to come out, assuming that the "next guy" has enough to lose for your liking?

You're smart, Ikari. You should be able to see the absurdity of your position.
 
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