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Thread: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

  1. #671
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Not every known issue about national defense is an important one. Provide some examples of these events and lets look at them in depth.
    again, you're trying to quibble over something that doesn't speak to the larger issue. Even if all issues of national defense were not inherently important to the nation, it would not undermine my point about something being discussed having an inherent impact on the nation (like many issues of national defense do), regardless of their peoples personal views of it, and other having no real importance to the nation, despite their personal views of it

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    Re: Rehat he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Figures you would focus in on that and ignore that the article is outlining how debates are not of real importance...
    Ah, there's your problem. You decided that their exceedingly narrow parameters for importance (affecting the outcome of the election in a significant way) can negate a more general set of parameters for importance.

    Just because they are not important in deciding the election, that doe snot mean that they do not have national importance. It is important for voters to be informed.

    Tucker, you were disagreeing with my claim that "Clearly "as a nation" it will be something heavily discussed. But its over all significance is still pretty low"
    I disagree with it's significance being pretty low. Just like I disagree with your claim that debates having the effect of informing the electorate is not of "real" importance.

    1) you did not say "new information", you wrote "get their first real understanding of the candidates' views in the debates"
    I did. You said that "nothing new is going to be said" and you are correct about that. So we both already agree that the information is not actually "new", it is just "new to the voters. I phrased my statement in a way which acknowledged that fact. I cannot help it if the article you cited did not clarify that point, but I am under the impression that both of us, being in agreement that nothing new is actually said during debates, can agree on that.

    2) This was presented to counter my claim about real significance. And if you read the paper, you will notice despite the "perception" of real significance, there isn't actually any. Hence perception=/=reality.
    "Real significance" is not simply confined to the parameters of influencing the election. It has a real significance with regard to informing the electorate. That has been proven.


    learning new information about a candidate isn't the same as "first real understanding of the candidates views".
    Really? I would say that a real understanding can only come from possessing the information. If they are getting new information during the debates, that indicates that they have not put forth any effort in acquiring information prior to the debate, because as we both agree, nothing new is presented. Thus, they cannot possibly have a real understanding of the candidates views prior to the debate.

    Unless there is some other methods of achieving real understanding that you know of besides acquiring the information. Do you know of some other method?

    A claim that is only underlined by the fact that this new information is "not likely to change many minds"
    Who said that people use a real understanding of the candidates views as their primary means of making up their minds? I know I certainly didn't. Sadly, I don't believe that most people actually use a real understanding of the candidates views as their primary method of making up their minds.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    again, you're trying to quibble over something that doesn't speak to the larger issue.
    So you can't?
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    Well you are wrong. The entire nation does not find it to be an important story.
    Every individual in the nation, no, but the nation as a whole singular unit, yes.

    Yes I was asking for which group finds it important.
    Since you continue to ask the question using the singular form of the word group, the answer remains "the Nation", which, as a unified group, finds it important. Individuals in that group might disagree, but the group as a whole considers the issue important.

    Do you want me to talk about which groups within the nation find the issue important? If so, I can provide that answer for you as well.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    So you can't?
    No, I am pointing out you are trying to argue over points of irrelevance. Take for example the discussion you want to have on national defence (ignoring that I never made a claim about *all* national defense). What I was conveying was that there are issues that hold an objective interest for the public, regardless of how they are being publicly discussed, and there are others, without such interes, regardless of how they are being publicly discussed.

    The issue of if we can claim this pertains to all/some/few/many/ a plethora/etc of events pertaining to national defense is irrelevant, because the over all point, that there are issues of inherent interest, and others that are not, still stands.

    The same is true of your quibbling over the nature of that discussion. Regardless if you label it a national dialogue/debate/ meeting of minds/etc, would not change the fact that merely discussing it in any capacity does not lend it inherent importance.

    Which was my point originally: a bunch of people discussing this and giving praise does not make it anything more than the media issue of the moment . After all, the entire claim that this guy is active is basically dependent on a technicality. And while he gained a bunch of public praise, that isn't surprising given the current media climate.

  6. #676
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    There are thousands of college and NBA ball players over the past 12 years who would probably have given anything to have such "garbage" themselves.

    Twelve years in a league where there's a max of 450 is not a career one could reasonably call "garbage".

    Let's take just the tournament teams, and unlike the NBA lets assume they have the least amount of people on the bench possible with 12. That's 768 basketball players every year that would LOVE to have even probably a fourth of that "garbage" career.

    Is he LeBron James? Of course not. That's like saying someone making $250k a year doing something they enjoy has a "garbage" career compared to a CEO making multi-millions. In the scope of reality, his career isn't garbage.

    Hell, look at the team he's on. You want to know who on the Wizards has a better chance of having what you'd call a "garbage career". Jan Vessely. A guy who will probably be lucky if he gets more than 4 years in the NBA. He may have better stats...but you go team by team of GMs and ask which player they'd want on their team all contract things being equal and I'd bet money Collins gets the nod every time (unless that GM was ernie grumsfeld...sigh).

    Or looking around the NBA...how about Luke Jackson. In his six combined seasons he didn't play in a seasons worth of games. Collins has six SEASONS where he played in more games than Jackson did his entire career. Luke's minutes played per game average was less than 10, Collins is over 20. Their PPG were similar, but Collins brought you half a block per game and about 3 rebounds per game more.

    Yes...I do think referencing the guys stats can be reasonable and realistic in the discussion. When part of the conversation after he came out was concerning his chances of getting hired next year they NEED to be brought up. And it's entirely reasonable, when talking about historical and long lasting impact, that the level of player he was could come into play. But one must be at least honest and realistic about it.

    He was no superstar, but his career is not one that should be considered "garbage" and labeling it as such lends immedietely questioning to the motives of those making such a statement.
    The guy stuck around because he was 7 ft. 250 pounds. There is a reason why no team kept him around. Look at his career numbers. They suck across the board. Now you can make a case that he is sooo much better than a bunch of guys not in the NBA, which is rediculous. Compare him and his performance to almost any other NBA center who played significant minutes every game. He is a ****ty player.
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  7. #677
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    The guy stuck around because he was 7 ft. 250 pounds. There is a reason why no team kept him around. Look at his career numbers. They suck across the board. Now you can make a case that he is sooo much better than a bunch of guys not in the NBA, which is rediculous. Compare him and his performance to almost any other NBA center who played significant minutes every game. He is a ****ty player.
    He was consistently rated as one of the top defensive centers in the league. His shortcomings in other areas made it so he could never be a great starter, but he's been able to keep a job as an effective role player for ten years.
    There should be Instant Runoff Voting

  8. #678
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Every individual in the nation, no, but the nation as a whole singular unit, yes.



    Since you continue to ask the question using the singular form of the word group, the answer remains "the Nation", which, as a unified group, finds it important. Individuals in that group might disagree, but the group as a whole considers the issue important.

    Do you want me to talk about which groups within the nation find the issue important? If so, I can provide that answer for you as well.
    If you are trying to come off as ignorant, job well done.

    No do you think you can answer the question?

    Who finds this story important?

    Please don't say the nation because that is not true at all.

    Also please try to not turn this into a pissing contest like you do with the other posters. They are so tiresome.

    If you are not capable of answering the question please just say so.

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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    The guy stuck around because he was 7 ft. 250 pounds.
    Which is irrelevant as to whether or not his career was "garbage".

    IF he stuck around for 12 years because he was a good player to have in practice it still wouldn't be a "garbage" career. But this is a guy who actually got substantial playing time at points in his career and stuck around for more than a decade. Regardless of WHY you think that is, that's not a "garbage" career.

    There is a reason why no team kept him around.
    There's also a reason why teams kept signing him.

    It's funny, you're changing your argument htough. First you're suggesting he had a "garbage" career. I counter that and all you do is go "but but but....it's because he's tall"

    Now you can make a case that he is sooo much better than a bunch of guys not in the NBA, which is rediculous.
    I did, I also compared him to former NBA players who had a MUCH worse career than him.

    Compare him and his performance to almost any other NBA center who played significant minutes every game. He is a ****ty player.
    If you're getting significant minutes every game for 12 years in the NBA, your CAREER isn't garbage.

    I'd disagree with you if you were claiming his PLAY has been garbage all this time too...but that's different than saying his career is garbage, which is what you did. He's had a rather good career considering the average length of a career in the NBA is 5 years and he's more than doubled it.

  10. #680
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    If you are trying to come off as ignorant, job well done.

    .
    Tucker Ignorant?

    In much the same way as Sarah Palin is well-educated, I would say.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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