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Thread: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You keep claiming what it means, providing no definitions or actual references to in any way shape or form back up your claiming of the proper definition and meaning of it, but what you say doesn't mesh with what the words mean and how they're used.
    The definitions you provided are fine. The disagreement we are having is that you seem to think the adjective found inside of the prepositional phrase should apply to the noun outside of the prepositional phrase.

    My stance is that an adjective inside of a prepositional phrase applies to the noun inside of the prepositional phrase.


    At any rate, I have demonstrated that I did not move the goalposts, since I have not changed my arguments on this portion at any time. In fact, I said almost the same things in my initial claim about what does not does not become a topic of national conversation.
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    no one who lasts more than a couple of years in any pro sport should be accused of having a "garbage" career.
    Exactly my point.

    If he doesn't get a contract, is it because he came out? or is it because he just wasn't good enough to be wanted
    If he does get a contract, is it because some team thought he still had some gas left in the tank and could contribute? or is it because some team wanted the noteriety of having "the first gay player" on their roster.
    It's one of those things no one can honestly answer one way or another. However, I would suggest both the fact that:

    1) he's an aging 12th man whose seen significantly declining minutes and was jettisoned by a playoff team

    and

    2) he's managed to stay in the league for 12 years and is rated as a very good defender whose done well against the big men superstars in recent years

    as reason to state that there's legitimate reason to think whatever happens to him next year would've happened to him regardless of him coming out.

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    Re: Rehat he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    since you didn't respond to my request to validate this:



    The Washington Monthly - The Magazine - Do Presidential Debates Really Matter?
    Thank you for providing a source for my information for me. Inside the quote "And voters do learn new information, according to several academic studies."

    It's good to actually comprehend what you read, sadly you do not choose to do this. You provided validation for my claim. You'll note that I did NOT say that gaining a real understanding of the candidates changes anyone's mind.

    I did NOT claim that debates were "gamechangers".

    I did NOT claim that debates have an effect on elections.

    These things I did NOT claim are the only things that you provided a rebuttal for. This is because you do choose to not comprehend what you read. You are capable of it, but you decide not to.

    I said "Many, if not most, voters get their first real understanding of the candidates' views in the debates."

    You have verified that claim as accurate.

    Now, since you should have gotten posting irrelevant nonsense out of your system, perhaps you can answer the question you dodged in that now-verified post. Is that not of actual importance?
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    no one who lasts more than a couple of years in any pro sport should be accused of having a "garbage" career. I brought up his stats to illustrate that, given his age and level of play, there is a good chance he is done regardless of his coming out or not.

    I kinda wish he had either made his announcement before the season was over or waited until he got picked up next season. Now we'll never know for sure what impact his coming out had on his career.

    If he doesn't get a contract, is it because he came out? or is it because he just wasn't good enough to be wanted
    If he does get a contract, is it because some team thought he still had some gas left in the tank and could contribute? or is it because some team wanted the noteriety of having "the first gay player" on their roster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Exactly my point.



    It's one of those things no one can honestly answer one way or another. However, I would suggest both the fact that:

    1) he's an aging 12th man whose seen significantly declining minutes and was jettisoned by a playoff team

    and

    2) he's managed to stay in the league for 12 years and is rated as a very good defender whose done well against the big men superstars in recent years

    as reason to state that there's legitimate reason to think whatever happens to him next year would've happened to him regardless of him coming out.
    I just want to note that both of you just proved that you do not fit the bill of my initial post about homophobes.

    That being said, I do apologize for incorrectly extending my arguments beyond that initial post incorrectly by saying that anyone who bring sup his statline would be doing it for homophobic reasons, as that was unfair to those of you who were trying to argue against teh idea that he would only not be picked up because of this announcement (which is an absurd claim), but my initial fake-quote from homophobes doesn't apply to either of you and the way that you are discussing his stats at all.
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Really, based on what? I can think of many political scandals, that became "issues of national debate" that had no real importance behind them. Clinton's blow job coming to mind. Which would have had no impact if he didn't lie under oath. An event directly driven by the "national debate" on the subject.
    I don't necessarily think a national debate is the same thing as a national conversation/ national discussion. National debates are usually mindless partisan drivel. National conversations and national discussions actually include an exchange of ideas.

    I wouldn't say that Clintons BJ sparked a national conversation. It caused a firestorm of national partisan debate, but that's a different thing, isn't it?

    Why is it that you keep changing the words involved, anyway?









    1) the fact that many issues of national defense remain unknown doesn't change the fact that others are known, or undermine the idea that they have a clear impact on the general public, regardless of their personal perceptions of it.
    Not every known issue about national defense is an important one. Provide some examples of these events and lets look at them in depth.

    2) I fail to see the issue of citing the broad category of "national defense". When the subject of "national defense" would include everything from the iraq war, to 9/11
    So are you saying every event related to the Iraq war is a national defense event? If so, then the vast majority of those events are inconsequential events.

    As usual, you're attempting to quibble about some irrelevant point of issue, as to avoid the larger debate
    As usual, you cite irrelevancies as a way to pretend you have a point.


    I'm not sure how naming a broad category of things that would have clear public importance would be irrelevant to the discussion
    You have yet to demonstrate that things which get the "national security" label have "clear public importance".

    Did you assume that I would have to agree that your example was a good one? I see no support for it, and it appears to be totally irrelevant. that's not making an argument, it's making a claim. A claim that is not supported nor relevant.


    So your contention is that there are no "events" that would fall under the category of "national defense"?
    No, if we were debating the issue, my contention would be that there are a multitude of events that fall under the category of "national defense" that are NOT of clear public importance. Many of them are psuedo-events.

    But, since we are not debating that issue, my contention is that you have not provided a relevant example of what you wish to provide an example of.

    Again, and as usual, your trying to argue about things completely irrelevant tho the larger issue
    Again, as usual, you failed to comprehend what you read.


    No, it still seems to makes no sense, nor have much bearing on what we are discussing
    I cannot make you comprehend what is there, especially when you decide to use your imagination to fill in the parts you didn't understand.
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I wouldn't say that Clintons BJ sparked a national conversation. It caused a firestorm of national partisan debate, but that's a different thing, isn't it?
    Really?

    Just taking what I am trying to understand as your take on the phrase you're using....I imagine the conversation regarding morality, ethics, and the aspect of being a role model for the man in the Presidency would qualify.

    Arguably the most powerful man in the country and one of the most powerful in the world, and the representation of our country to the world, cheated on his wife, leveraged his position to have sexual relations with a subordinate, and did at his work place. That's not even getting to the perjury part but just focusing on the "BJ" part you spoke of. While there was definitely partisan bickering that was attached to it, I would think that the conversation resulting from it was of no less national importance or scope or relevance than Janet Jacksons tit on TV.

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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Really?

    Just taking what I am trying to understand as your take on the phrase you're using....I imagine the conversation regarding morality, ethics, and the aspect of being a role model for the man in the Presidency would qualify.

    Arguably the most powerful man in the country and one of the most powerful in the world, and the representation of our country to the world, cheated on his wife, leveraged his position to have sexual relations with a subordinate, and did at his work place. That's not even getting to the perjury part but just focusing on the "BJ" part you spoke of. While there was definitely partisan bickering that was attached to it, I would think that the conversation resulting from it was of no less national importance or scope or relevance than Janet Jacksons tit on TV.
    Good point. I got hung up on the "debate" part, but there was a significant national conversation about the event that ensued from it. And those things were important.
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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Every time they show a pro athlete with their girlfriend/#3/wife/fiance they are announcing it. The whole reason to come out is to not have to *hide* it anymore.
    Well the guy could just show up with a dude to public events and I'm sure ESPN will show it.

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    Re: Rehat he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Thank you for providing a source for my information for me. Inside the quote "And voters do learn new information, according to several academic studies."
    Figures you would focus in on that and ignore that the article is outlining how debates are not of real importance, which was the claim your originally tried to refute ...

    It's good to actually comprehend what you read, sadly you do not choose to do this. You provided validation for my claim. You'll note that I did NOT say that gaining a real understanding of the candidates changes anyone's mind.
    Tucker, you were disagreeing with my claim that "Clearly "as a nation" it will be something heavily discussed. But its over all significance is still pretty low"


    I said "Many, if not most, voters get their first real understanding of the candidates' views in the debates."
    1) you did not say "new information", you wrote "get their first real understanding of the candidates' views in the debates"

    2) This was presented to counter my claim about real significance. And if you read the paper, you will notice despite the "perception" of real significance, there isn't actually any. Hence perception=/=reality.

    You have verified that claim as accurate.
    learning new information about a candidate isn't the same as "first real understanding of the candidates views". A claim that is only underlined by the fact that this new information is "not likely to change many minds"

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    Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Based on the wording of your question, I have to assume you are asking to a specific single group. If so, the answer is "The nation".

    If you want to know which portions of the nation find this to be an important story, I can provide that answer for you as well.
    Well you are wrong. The entire nation does not find it to be an important story.

    Yes I was asking for which group finds it important.

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