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Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors [W:24]

Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

what is the moral difference between killing a child outside the womb, and killing in 10 minutes earlier?

Only .08 percent of all legal abortions that place in the USA are after the limit of viability. They are the extreme cases and I personally feel that abortions that take place because of those extreme cases are very moral.

They are the cases where the woman's life or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would take if the pregnancy continued, where the fetus died a natural death in the womb, would be stillborn, or is so malformed it would only live a few minutes or hours.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Only .08 percent of all legal abortions that place in the USA are after the limit of viability.

Was Kermit Gosnell's work in his "House of Horrors" included in that statistic? What about the others that are now being shown to murder babies after they leave the womb?

That statistic is nonsense and you should stop using it.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

what is the moral difference between killing a child outside the womb, and killing in 10 minutes earlier?

'Pro choice' people don't enjoy discussing 'morals'.

Abortion is the one area where they stoutly believe that the law should be strictly followed except, of course, when it threatens the abortion business. This is the one area also where they always defend free enterprise.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Only .08 percent of all legal abortions that place in the USA are after the limit of viability. They are the extreme cases and I personally feel that abortions that take place because of those extreme cases are very moral.

They are the cases where the woman's life or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would take if the pregnancy continued, where the fetus died a natural death in the womb, would be stillborn, or is so malformed it would only live a few minutes or hours.

with the collusion shown by the medical community in working to protect Gosnell, I am figuring the designation as life threatening might be more questionable than you suggest
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Was Kermit Gosnell's work in his "House of Horrors" included in that statistic? What about the others that are now being shown to murder babies after they leave the womb?

That statistic is nonsense and you should stop using it.
That stat is not nonsense.
That stat is about legal abortions.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

with the collusion shown by the medical community in working to protect Gosnell, I am figuring the designation as life threatening might be more questionable than you suggest

As far as I can tell no one in medical community is in collusion to protect Gosnell or anyone else who murders born alive infants.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

That stat is not nonsense.
That stat is about legal abortions.

This is what you said:
Only .08 percent of all legal abortions that place in the USA are after the limit of viability. They are the extreme cases and I personally feel that abortions that take place because of those extreme cases are very moral.

Was Gosnell's abortions illegal? If so, why didn't PP report him after the complaints? Why were there no inspections if what he was doing was illegal?

The fact is that Gosnell's stats have to be included in your stat. And we know also that other late term abortionists are murdering live and breathing babies. Are they included in your .08 stat? Who is involved in that .08 figure you use?
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

As far as I can tell no one in medical community is in collusion to protect Gosnell or anyone else who murders born alive infants.

Well, besides the material about the oversight agency completely ignoring reports of death, there is also extensive information in the GJR discussing how doctors didn't report abortion injuries and related deaths

Pennsylvania’s Abortion Control Act requires any doctor who treats a woman
because of a complication arising from an abortion to make a report to DOH. Willful
failure to do so constitutes “unprofessional conduct” and subjects the treating doctor to
sanctions by the Board of Medicine. Clearly, this law is being violated, if not willfully, at
least consistently.
We learned of at least five of Gosnell’s patients who were treated for serious
complications at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania (HUP) or Presbyterian
Hospital, the two closest emergency rooms to the Women’s Medical Society clinic. We
heard evidence of many more women, whose names we did not learn, who also had to
seek emergency care after undergoing abortions at Gosnell’s facility. Yet we received no
complication reports when we subpoenaed documents from DOH.
The attorney representing HUP doctors before the Grand Jury was able to
produce only one confirmed report ever made (which raises the question why DOH did
not turn over this report). That one report was for Semika Shaw, who died at the hospital
in March 2000. Documents turned over to the Grand Jury show that, following Shaw’s
death, another hospital attorney, Mary Ellen Nepps, distributed a memo to doctors at
HUP and Pennsylvania Hospital. The memo reminded the physicians, “in light of some
recent reports of abortion complications and maternal deaths,” that they were responsible
for filing reports with DOH in such cases.

Yet, when Karnamaya Mongar died at HUP nine years later, no report was made.
Nor did the Grand Jury receive evidence of reports made, other than in Shaw’s case, for
any of the serious complications that other patients of Gosnell suffered. Dana Haynes
went straight to the HUP emergency room from Gosnell’s clinic with a perforated cervix
and bowel and most of a fetus still in her uterus. She required surgery and was
hospitalized for five days....

...The issue, however, goes beyond simple compliance with the Abortion Control
Act’s reporting requirement. Based on the evidence we heard regarding state officials’
procedures and practices, it is doubtful that reporting under that act would actually have
triggered any kind of action from the state. Staloski, the DOH director in charge ofabortion facilities, told us that she did not even get – or ask for – complication reports. It
seems that they were treated as statistical information rather than as a means to uncover
problem facilities.

I find it rather amazing abortion advocates are refusing to acknowledge the problems here and keep making claims about Gosnell being the product of too much regulation. When it's clear the exact opposite is true
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Was Gosnell's abortions illegal? If so, why didn't PP report him after the complaints? Why were there no inspections if what he was doing was illegal?

there was an attitude in within the state oversight agency and government that basically endorsed the idea that regulating abortion facilities would act as a deterrent against abortion. Also, within such a context, it would be hard to trust the figures reported in the absence of oversight
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

That stat is not nonsense.
That stat is about legal abortions.

the reason it's questionable is that what gosnell was doing was likely reported as legal abortions. he's not going to pen a report saying "I committed illegal acts", he's going to report it as a legal one. And without any real oversight, there is no means to audit such information
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

there was an attitude in within the state oversight agency and government that basically endorsed the idea that regulating abortion facilities would act as a deterrent against abortion. Also, within such a context, it would be hard to trust the figures reported in the absence of oversight

Yes, that's true and it's proving very difficult for many to accept. You can see how fearful they are on this thread, as well as in many other media, that the threat to easy abortion is their first interest. If I was strongly pro abortion, or pro choice, I might feel the same way.

But there are also limits that we should place on ourselves and those we find in the same political bed. When a woman had been murdered, and many babies as well, it is not the best time to proclaim our pro abortion views.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

the reason it's questionable is that what gosnell was doing was likely reported as legal abortions. he's not going to pen a report saying "I committed illegal acts", he's going to report it as a legal one. And without any real oversight, there is no means to audit such information

According to the grand jury investigation he took the records of the women he performed illegal acts on and hid them in his home. It seems he did not report them at all.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

According to the grand jury investigation he took the records of the women he performed illegal acts on and hid them in his home. It seems he did not report them at all.

There was one small problem. The law requires a measurement of gestational
age, usually done by an ultrasound. The ultrasound film would leave documentary proof
that the abortion was illegal. Gosnell’s solution was simply to fudge the measurement
process. Instead of hiring proper ultrasound technicians, he “trained” the staff himself,
showing them how to aim the ultrasound probe at an angle to make the fetus look
smaller. If one of his workers nonetheless recorded an ultrasound measurement that was
too big, it would just be redone. Invariably these second ultrasounds would come in
lower. In fact, almost every time a second ultrasound was taken, the gestational age
would be recorded as precisely 24.5 weeks – slightly past the statutory cutoff.
Apparently Gosnell thought he would get away with abortions that were just a little
illegal. In reality, of course, most of these pregnancies were considerably more
advanced.

Again, I am simply amazed at some of you so blatantly trying to distort what happened at this facility
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Only .08 percent of all legal abortions that place in the USA are after the limit of viability. They are the extreme cases and I personally feel that abortions that take place because of those extreme cases are very moral.

They are the cases where the woman's life or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would take if the pregnancy continued, where the fetus died a natural death in the womb, would be stillborn, or is so malformed it would only live a few minutes or hours.

So you would find the late-term killing of a child who wasn't fatally malformed or threatening the mothers life to be equally morally abhorrent as the killing of the same child ten minutes later when he was located a few inches away?
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

So you would find the late-term killing of a child who wasn't fatally malformed or threatening the mothers life to be equally morally abhorrent as the killing of the same child ten minutes later when he was located a few inches away?

I find one greatly more illegal than the other. The comparative morality is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

As far as I can tell no one in medical community is in collusion to protect Gosnell or anyone else who murders born alive infants.

So you don't consider Planned Parenthood to be in the medical community?
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

I find one greatly more illegal than the other. The comparative morality is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.

Not at all. Legality is nothing more than publicly enforced morality. But your refusal to answer the question (which cannot be adequately answered from your position) is noted :).
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

According to the grand jury investigation he took the records of the women he performed illegal acts on and hid them in his home. It seems he did not report them at all.

Actually I misremembered.
According to the investigation Gosnell took the records home and
destroied them.


Most of these acts cannot be prosecuted, because Gosnell destroyed the files.



<SNIP>
The files for these patients were not kept at the office; Gosnell took them home with him and disposed of them. We may never know the details of these cases.

Gosnell Acquitted on 3 Counts of Murder, 5 Counts of Corpse Abuse in Grisly Murder Trial | Pitts Report
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Not at all. Legality is nothing more than publicly enforced morality. But your refusal to answer the question (which cannot be adequately answered from your position) is noted :).

Legality is publicly enforced protection of rights.

The law doesn't recognize the ZEF as having any rights.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Legality is publicly enforced protection of rights.

The law doesn't recognize the ZEF as having any rights.

Any idea at all where you got those "rights"?

There are more than "Zefs" involved here.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Legality is publicly enforced protection of rights.

partially. we believe it is moral to do so. your continued inability to answer the question is noted.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

partially. we believe it is moral to do so. your continued inability to answer the question is noted.

Note away!!

Far be it for me to stop anyone from noting something that isn't true
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

Actually I misremembered.
According to the investigation Gosnell took the records home and
destroied them.




Gosnell Acquitted on 3 Counts of Murder, 5 Counts of Corpse Abuse in Grisly Murder Trial | Pitts Report

You're being tottally dishonest here. The statements that I cited, about Gosnell fudging records, deal with late term abortion, Abortions that would not have simply made the cut-off limit for viability.

What you are citing are the records of the live deliveries and 'snipping" procedure

Over the years, there were hundreds of “snippings.” Sometimes, if Gosnell was
unavailable, the “snipping” was done by one of his fake doctors, or even by one of the
administrative staff. But all the employees of the Women’s Medical Society knew.
Everyone there acted as if it wasn’t murder at all.
Most of these acts cannot be prosecuted, because Gosnell destroyed the files.
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

You're being tottally dishonest here. The statements that I cited, about Gosnell fudging records, deal with late term abortion, Abortions that would not have simply made the cut-off limit for viability.

What you are citing are the records of the live deliveries and 'snipping" procedure

No, you're being dishonest. Let's review exactly what is being disputed here

Only .08 percent of all legal abortions that place in the USA are after the limit of viability.

I've seen no evidence that the # of abortions Gosnell performed would have seriously affected the # cited here. Even if Gosnell performed 25% of all late-term abortions, that would have only changed the # from .08% to .10%

The point being that abortions that occur after viability are a miniscule portion of the whole. Implying otherwise is inherently dishonest
 
Re: Planned Parenthood Knew of Gosnell's Abortion Horrors

I've seen no evidence that the # of abortions Gosnell performed would have seriously affected the # cited here.

who said that gosnell's clinic would have some drastic effect on that number? The issue raised was that the number is unreliable, due to the inability to audit and lack oversight. Gosnell just serves as an example to show how those metrics make such possible with a real world example.
 
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