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Baby Abortion Survivor Was "Swimming" In Toilet "Trying To Get Out"

SheWolf said:
I don't have inside information, but know a lot of lifers are not going to approve of anybody performing late term abortion. The accusations don't surprise me.

His clinic saw violence for years until he was murdered, and none of those protesters nor Bill O Reilley thought to tone it down. So its kind if hard to take their word that he was breaking the law without any significant evidence of doing so. I think its more likely they would make those accusations and assumptions without having sufficient proof themselves, because if they had real evidence he'd be convicted instead in a grave right now.
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Possibly you missed this part of the articles I posted....Or didn't bother to even read them....

"In testimony perhaps even less to Monnat’s liking, Kline revealed that in April, 2006, he had gone to Shawnee County District Court Judge Richard Anderson because he had reason to believe that abortion records that he received through subpoena as Attorney General contained evidence of a conspiracy between Tiller and Planned Parenthood to violate the Kansas late-term abortion law. Nevertheless, Kline was ordered to return the Tiller records to then Attorney General Morrison.

Kline said that he found that Planned Parenthood had referred three women to Tiller for late-term abortions even though the women were over legal threshold of 22 weeks gestation, and that the women did not meet any of the exceptions to the Kansas ban on late-abortions since they had no physical or mental health problems. Judge Anderson later advised Kline to ask Morrison for the three records in question. Kline made the request, but Morrison refused it."

So Morrison refused to turn over evidence, strange isn't it that it is the same thing you ask for now eh? Now why would a defender of Tiller refuse to turn over evidence like that? So that there remains deniability?

So tell me SheWolf, are you in favor of aborting babies late term?
 
SheWolf said:
I don't have inside information, but know a lot of lifers are not going to approve of anybody performing late term abortion. The accusations don't surprise me.

His clinic saw violence for years until he was murdered, and none of those protesters nor Bill O Reilley thought to tone it down. So its kind if hard to take their word that he was breaking the law without any significant evidence of doing so. I think its more likely they would make those accusations and assumptions without having sufficient proof themselves, because if they had real evidence he'd be convicted instead in a grave right now.
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It's not just pro-lifers who oppose late-term/partial-birth abortions. A majority of states have bans of one sort or another. Late termination of pregnancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're right that Tiller was never convicted, but this was because of a loophole in Kansas law which no longer exists. The grand jury which reviewed Tiller's case addressed this loophole because it was the reason it couldn't indict.
 
I call bovine excrement on this. Babies can't swim and wouldn't even know to get out of the water.
 
Primitive reflexes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The swimming reflex involves placing an infant face down in a pool of water. The infant will begin to paddle and kick in a swimming motion. The reflex disappears between 4–6 months. Despite the infant displaying a normal response by paddling and kicking, placing them in water can be a very risky procedure. Infants can swallow a large amount of water while performing this task, therefore caregivers should proceed with caution. It is advisable to postpone swimming lessons for infants until they are at least three months old, because infants submerged in water can die from water intoxication.
 
Scrabaholic said:
I call bovine excrement on this. Babies can't swim and wouldn't even know to get out of the water.
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Why don't you go to YouTube and view the 9-month old twins swimming on their backs?

Babies are born with both a "swimming" and a "diving reflex." You can Google this.
 
Scrabaholic said:
I call bovine excrement on this. Babies can't swim and wouldn't even know to get out of the water.
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It's not like the baby was trying to beat Michael Phelps' record. Every human who has lungs has a reflex to kick themselves out of water so they can breathe.
 
A fetus has been "breathing" amniotic fluid inside the womb right up to when it hits the air. The emotive description of reflexive action such as "trying to get out" implies that it was not only aware of it's surroundings but understood the concept of in/out, which is patently false.
 
Manc Skipper said:
A fetus has been "breathing" amniotic fluid inside the womb right up to when it hits the air. The emotive description of reflexive action such as "trying to get out" implies that it was not only aware of it's surroundings but understood the concept of in/out, which is patently false.
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well, it's the accounting of an eye witness and I doubt anyone is taking t to mean that there was some internal dialogue going on within the child. But others have said, it just seems a rather bizarre point to argue against here, Being that if the child was just instinctively responding to something, or developing a rational plan of action to escape the confines of the water, it paints a rather horrific picture of an already horrific incident
 
j-mac said:
Possibly
you missed this part of the articles I posted....Or didn't bother to even read them....

"In testimony perhaps even less to Monnat’s liking, Kline revealed that in April, 2006, he had gone to Shawnee County District Court Judge Richard Anderson because he had reason to believe that abortion records that he received through subpoena as Attorney General contained evidence of a conspiracy between Tiller and Planned Parenthood to violate the Kansas late-term abortion law. Nevertheless, Kline was ordered to return the Tiller records to then Attorney General Morrison.

Kline said that he found that Planned Parenthood had referred three women to Tiller for late-term abortions even though the women were over legal threshold of 22 weeks gestation, and that the women did not meet any of the exceptions to the Kansas ban on late-abortions since they had no physical or mental health problems. Judge Anderson later advised Kline to ask Morrison for the three records in question. Kline made the request, but Morrison refused it."

So Morrison refused to turn over evidence, strange isn't it that it is the same thing you ask for now eh? Now why would a defender of Tiller refuse to turn over evidence like that? So that there remains deniability?

So tell me SheWolf, are you in favor of aborting babies late term?
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I don't understand the evidence. If there were evidence then why didn't he get in trouble?

And even this testimony doesn't say he broke any law. It just said some women were referred to him, and they shouldn't have been. It.doesnt say they received abortions.




And I don't like late term abortion, but I know it needs to be legal to protect the lives and safety of women.
 
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nota bene said:
Why
don't you go to YouTube and view the 9-month old twins swimming on their backs?

Babies are born with both a "swimming" and a "diving reflex." You can Google this.
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There is not that much water in a toilet.
 
SheWolf said:
I don't understand the evidence.
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How's that? Although the article doesn't detail the exact paper trail of evidence that the attorney had through subpoena, it's pretty clear that it was damning toward a collusion between PP, and Tiller to break the law, and the Judge ordered him to turn it over to the AG Morrison, probably for review, and possible prosecution through the state. At that time, Kline argued further to the judge, and the judge said he could ask for it back...Morrison the AG refused. Remember this was a Sebelius lacky, and Tiller was supported by the corrupt Sebelius.

And even this testimony doesn't say he broke any law. It just said some women were referred to him, and they shouldn't have been. It.doesnt say they received abortions.
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George Tiller was on trial for 19 counts of breaking Kansas law, preforming abortions after 22 weeks with no medical reason for such....A grand jury indicted him....This is a fact. But interesting that you now will only acknowledge that the women were referred to him, not that they received the abortions...What else did Tiller's clinic do? It is absurd to debate in this fashion...If you are not going to accept that the only reason to walk through those doors was to obtain an abortion, in cases up to the 32nd week or beyond, with no medical reason other than some contrived one probably made up on the spot by the staff for paper work reasons.

This parallels Gosnell as well, concerning the referrals from what I understand....Now getting liars to admit it under oath is the trick. In Gosnell's case he won't go near the stand....Wonder why?

And I don't like late term abortion, but I know it needs to be legal to protect the lives and safety of women.
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Then restrict it to hospitals to perform, because we see how criminal abortionists will abuse the law.
 
Deuce said:
... I think you've wildly misinterpreted how statistics work.
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Really...two living entities go into an abortion 'clinic'...one living entity exits...death rate = 50%...almost all abortion attempts end in death...look it up..
 
j-mac said:
How's that? Although the article doesn't detail the exact paper trail of evidence that the attorney had through subpoena, it's pretty clear that it was damning toward a collusion between PP, and Tiller to break the law, and the Judge ordered him to turn it over to the AG Morrison, probably for review, and possible prosecution through the state. At that time, Kline argued further to the judge, and the judge said he could ask for it back...Morrison the AG refused. Remember this was a Sebelius lacky, and Tiller was supported by the corrupt Sebelius.



George Tiller was on trial for 19 counts of breaking Kansas law, preforming abortions after 22 weeks with no medical reason for such....A grand jury indicted him....This is a fact. But interesting that you now will only acknowledge that the women were referred to him, not that they received the abortions...What else did Tiller's clinic do? It is absurd to debate in this fashion...If you are not going to accept that the only reason to walk through those doors was to obtain an abortion, in cases up to the 32nd week or beyond, with no medical reason other than some contrived one probably made up on the spot by the staff for paper work reasons.

This parallels Gosnell as well, concerning the referrals from what I understand....Now getting liars to admit it under oath is the trick. In Gosnell's case he won't go near the stand....Wonder why?



Then restrict it to hospitals to perform, because we see how criminal abortionists will abuse the law.
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Here is the psychiatrist who was asked by the A/G to investigate Tiller's records. Dr. Tiller's Abortion Records Exposed - YouTube
 
nota bene said:
This isn't a point of order; it's an irrelevancy.
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All right. If so, then it's precisely equal in irrelevancy to its equal and opposite....to which my post was a direct response.
 
I'm baffled that people want to nitpick and debate "breathing" and "swimming" and whatnot. The fact is that live babies were thrown in toilets, that act is simply disgusting and frankly it shouldn't matter if the baby was swimming, breathing, screaming, or anything else.
 
j-mac said:
How's
that? Although the article doesn't detail the exact paper trail of evidence that the attorney had through subpoena, it's pretty clear that it was damning toward a collusion between PP, and Tiller to break the law, and the Judge ordered him to turn it over to the AG Morrison, probably for review, and possible prosecution through the state. At that time, Kline argued further to the judge, and the judge said he could ask for it back...Morrison the AG refused. Remember this was a Sebelius lacky, and Tiller was supported by the corrupt Sebelius.



George Tiller was on trial for 19 counts of breaking Kansas law, preforming abortions after 22 weeks with no medical reason for such....A grand jury indicted him....This is a fact. But interesting that you now will only acknowledge that the women were referred to him, not that they received the abortions...What else did Tiller's clinic do? It is absurd to debate in this fashion...If you are not going to accept that the only reason to walk through those doors was to obtain an abortion, in cases up to the 32nd week or beyond, with no medical reason other than some contrived one probably made up on the spot by the staff for paper work reasons.

This parallels Gosnell as well, concerning the referrals from what I understand....Now getting liars to admit it under oath is the trick. In Gosnell's case he won't go near the stand....Wonder why?



Then restrict it to hospitals to perform, because we see how criminal abortionists will abuse the law.
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He was found innocent if all charges right before he was murdered. It was socially irresponsible if Bill O'Reilly to call him a murder and Tiller the Baby Killer in the face of all the violence that clinic saw, and the previous attempts made in Tiller's life.





Gohsin is no better.

If he were found guilty of such a crime or illegally aborting late term fetuses that would be.different.



Many pro lifers need to learn how to tone their anger and hate down...
 
digsbe said:
I'm baffled that people want to nitpick and debate "breathing" and "swimming" and whatnot. The fact is that live babies were thrown in toilets, that act is simply disgusting and frankly it shouldn't matter if the baby was swimming, breathing, screaming, or anything else.
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yeah, it's a totally absurd point to focus on, given the circumstances
 
SheWolf said:
He was found innocent if all charges right before he was murdered. It was socially irresponsible if Bill O'Reilly to call him a murder and Tiller the Baby Killer in the face of all the violence that clinic saw, and the previous attempts made in Tiller's life.





Gohsin is no better.

If he were found guilty of such a crime or illegally aborting late term fetuses that would be.different.



Many pro lifers need to learn how to tone their anger and hate down...
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The trial was rigged. You need to read this...

On Friday afternoon, March 27, it took a Wichita jury just 45 minutes to acquit Dr. George Tiller of 19 misdemeanor charges relating to his prolific late-term abortion business.Tiller needed help. And for those paying attention, the real help came not in the courtroom but in the proverbial back room where, some three years earlier, Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius engineered the deal that would keep Tiller’s practice alive.

Sebelius persuaded Paul Morrison, the popular Republican district attorney of the state’s most affluent county, to switch parties and run against sitting Attorney General Phill Kline.
Kline had proved deadly serious in bringing Tiller to justice, a move that had the potential to throw a major wrench in the Democratic fundraising apparatus.
With Tiller’s massive financial support behind him, Morrison ousted Kline. Before leaving office, however, Kline had filed 30 counts against Tiller for performing illegal late-term abortions.
In other words, Tiller stood accused of taking the life of 15 fully viable unborn babies whose mothers were equally healthy, in utter disregard of Kansas law.
While Morrison was reviewing these charges, Sebelius honored Tiller and his staff at an elegant but extremely discreet soiree at Cedar Crest, the governor’s mansion.
Among the more revealing of the photos taken at the event is one of Sebelius holding a T-Shirt presented to her by Tiller, which reads, “Trifecta 2006: Sebelius, Parkinson, Morrison.” In the photo, Sebelius points at Tiller as if to acknowledge his contribution to that victory.
To no one’s great surprise, Morrison dropped the felony charges Kline had brought against Tiller. As Morrison interpreted the law, if a doctor said an abortion was necessary to protect the life and health of the mother, that was good enough for the AG.

Read more at How Sebelius subverted the Tiller abortion trial
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j-mac said:
The trial was rigged.
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There wasn't enough evidence.

A lot of lifers.are way too emotionally invested in this issue and see it as black and white, so I am not surprised you would find some other reason to consider him a mass murderer in your eyes. But in reality, your side lacked sufficient evidence.


You're accusing him of anoher crime in the process as well. Rigging a trial, paying of a jury, tampering with evidence, and committing fraud steal serious allegations to make against somebody ontop of calling them a murderer.

This is why I have a hard time taking the pro life.position seriously
 
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My keyboard is a little messed up, so I am making lots of typos
 
SheWolf said:
There wasn't enough evidence.

A lot of lifers.are way too emotionally invested in this issue and see it as black and white, so I am not surprised you would find some other reason to consider him a mass murderer in your eyes. But in reality, your side lacked sufficient evidence.


You're accusing him of anoher crime in the process as well. Rigging a trial, paying of a jury, tampering with evidence, and committing fraud steal serious allegations to make against somebody ontop of calling them a murderer.

This is why I have a hard time taking the pro life.position seriously
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So am I to assume you are pro death?
 
SheWolf said:
There wasn't enough evidence.
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Funny how that happens when the person bringing the charges is unseated right before the trial for an AG that is sympathetic to your cause isn't it?

"As Morrison interpreted the law, if a doctor said an abortion was necessary to protect the life and health of the mother, that was good enough for the AG."

Read more at How Sebelius subverted the Tiller abortion trial

A lot of lifers.are way too emotionally invested in this issue and see it as black and white, so I am not surprised you would find some other reason to consider him a mass murderer in your eyes.
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A lot of late term abortion advocates are way too emotionally invested in this issue, and try to use a thousand shades of grey, and projection to cloud the issue, so I am not surprised you would some inane technicality, while ignoring what happened leading to that verdict to let him off, and ignore that he was guilty of infanticide.

You're accusing him of anoher crime in the process as well. Rigging a trial, paying of a jury, tampering with evidence, and committing fraud steal serious allegations to make against somebody ontop of calling them a murderer.
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No, I am accusing Sebelius, and her lackey Morrison of this, Tiller is just the beneficiary.

This is why I have a hard time taking the pro life.position seriously
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No, you don't take it seriously because you have rationalized the murder of a defenseless child as proper...I feel sorry for you.
 
hfd said:
So am I to assume you are pro death?
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And I assume you hate women and want to see their slutty corpses on the end of a hanger
 
SheWolf said:
And I assume you hate women and want to see their slutty corpses on the end of a hanger
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Emotional nonsense...Abortion would become a states issue where it should be, and the states now that make up the majority of abortions in this country would likely not see any change at all. Those that do restrict the practice will always have it available in hospitals for health of the mother issues.
 
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