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Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83,846]

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

humbolt said:
What disgusting behavior? Blowing innocent people up, or the temerity of those of us who label people who blow others up as hateful ****s?
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I was talking about the bombers...
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
Why do you keep repeating this, though? I was never debating whether or not your conclusion was rational. I was countering the claim that the suspect had said that he "hated Americans."
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It's been said that "actions speak louder than words". Perhaps his actions suggest he harbored some resentments.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Grant said:
Maybe people concluded that because he indiscriminately bombed innocent Americans, killing three and doing irreparable harm to scores of others. The bombs were not a sign of affection, no matter what you've been told.
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Unless it is a "Love Bomb"....

 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
Not a single person in this thread has made excuses for anyone. This entire thread, until very recently, has been about gathering information with some casual speculation.
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I agree with this. However, I will note that this is basically a parrelell in instances of rape where individuals suggest a victim had taken actions that helped place them in the given situation and people turning around proclaiming that someone is "blaming" the victim.

I dno't believe anyone is trying to "blame" society or make an excuse for what these guys did. There are some who want to understand the mentality of the mand are speculating about that mentality...just as others are speculating about the reasoning of the individuals...but that's normal in these situations. While I'm not one to jump to conclussions until the facts are largely out, some people simply deal with these type of situations better if they can try to understand what is ultimately not understandable.

The difference in the speculation is that generally those trying to figure out how their role in society caused them to go this route are the type of people who find solace in having an understanding for why something so horrific occured. Those that are generally speculating that they are islamic extremists that hate america are the type of people who find solance in having someone/something to blame and to further vindicate them as villians. Both are speculating and primarily doing it for their own peace of mind subconsiously, it just depends on what kind of thing actually helps that individuals mind.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

j-mac said:
Unless it is a "Love Bomb"....
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Those are clearly Asians; I'm calling BS.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

BretJ said:
In all fairness, I think it more accurate to state that they are most likely Islamic extremist terrorists at this point in time given their background and events. We really do not know for sure.
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I think the time to use the phrase "most likely" expired when these guys were identified. There is no other rational conclusion anymore.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

KevinKohler said:
There are lots of people that are both very religious, even muslim, and plenty more who are disgusted with american culture. Hell, I'M disgusted by american culture...on at least a daily basis.
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Because there's no such thing as "American culture." The notion that it exists is found only in the minds of clueless fools who buy into silly cliches such as American being a "melting pot." The US is merely a group of people who live and socialize within smaller groups, based on shared values, interests, or ethnicity.

To succeed socially in the US, one need not attempt to blend in with anything, but merely assert one's true self based on objective self-analysis, and then find a space in society where that self is compatible (i. e. "turn on, tune in, drop out" as suggested by Leary).

Attempting to merely "fit in" to one's immediate surroundings would only worsen one's life, as it would force him/her to be someone he/she is not. But regrettably, many foreigners, notably younguns, don't figure this out in time.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
I was the first one in those threads to post those quotes. I know what he said. I also didn't say that he said he "loved them". I said that he didn't say he "hated" them as another poster claimed. Why is it so important for you and others to come into this thread with such attitudes? Jesus Christ. Most of us are coming at this from a good faith angle.
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What he said was that he hated our culture. I guess you could seperate culture from Americans. (Many europeans claim we don't have any though....)
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Jack Fabulous said:
I think the time to use the phrase "most likely" expired when these guys were identified. There is no other rational conclusion anymore.
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They were 'most likely' Muslims as soon as we got the news. There is no need to turn away from that likelihood.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Zyphlin said:
I agree with this. However, I will note that this is basically a parrelell in instances of rape where individuals suggest a victim had taken actions that helped place them in the given situation and people turning around proclaiming that someone is "blaming" the victim.

I dno't believe anyone is trying to "blame" society or make an excuse for what these guys did. There are some who want to understand the mentality of the mand are speculating about that mentality...just as others are speculating about the reasoning of the individuals...but that's normal in these situations. While I'm not one to jump to conclussions until the facts are largely out, some people simply deal with these type of situations better if they can try to understand what is ultimately not understandable.

The difference in the speculation is that generally those trying to figure out how their role in society caused them to go this route are the type of people who find solace in having an understanding for why something so horrific occured. Those that are generally speculating that they are islamic extremists that hate america are the type of people who find solance in having someone/something to blame and to further vindicate them as villians. Both are speculating and primarily doing it for their own peace of mind subconsiously, it just depends on what kind of thing actually helps that individuals mind.
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I agree with that. The vast majority of speculation in this thread has come out of trying to understand the mentality of the victims as you said. However, some speculation has come from other, less helpful, places - in my opinion. And, in both instances, it probably is rooted in attempting to find some peace of mind. I just have a hard time, in situations like these, when attempts to get such peace of mind ends up being disruptive and unhelpful.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Grant said:
It's been said that "actions speak louder than words". Perhaps his actions suggest he harbored some resentments.
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Perhaps they do, but I wasn't debating that. I was debating that he actually said that he "hated Americans."
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

solletica said:
Because there's no such thing as "American culture." The notion that it exists is found only in the minds of clueless fools who buy into silly cliches such as American being a "melting pot." The US is merely a group of people who live and socialize within smaller groups, based on shared values, interests, or ethnicity.

To succeed socially in the US, one need not attempt to blend in with anything, but merely assert one's true self based on objective self-analysis, and then find a space in society where that self is compatible (i. e. "turn on, tune in, drop out" as suggested by Leary).

Attempting to merely "fit in" to one's immediate surroundings would only worsen one's life, as it would force him/her to be someone he/she is not. But regrettably, many foreigners, notably younguns, don't figure this out in time.
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You sound like a person who

A) has never been to America or
B) never left America.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
Perhaps they do, but I wasn't debating that. I was debating that he actually said that he "hated Americans."
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In fact you don't know what he said or didn't say. Everything so far is hearsay and we have no idea what he said in his private conversations, especially those with his brother. It seems obvious that he did have some strong feelings however, and it would not be unjustified to feel that the word "hate" might not be a factor in his decision to murder innocent Americans.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
Perhaps they do, but I wasn't debating that. I was debating that he actually said that he "hated Americans."
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I think you're splitting hairs with that. That he didn't say specifically that (and he may have, who knows) doesn't change the nature of his actions.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
I agree with that. The vast majority of speculation in this thread has come out of trying to understand the mentality of the victims as you said. However, some speculation has come from other, less helpful, places - in my opinion. And, in both instances, it probably is rooted in attempting to find some peace of mind. I just have a hard time, in situations like these, when attempts to get such peace of mind ends up being disruptive and unhelpful.
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To be fair, disruptive and unhelpful are rather subjective. People trying to find peace of mind in a way opposite of you is disruptive. To others, wringing ones hands wondering what could've made these guys feel so disconnected, what could've possibly made them feel at odds with america or some of the culture, what could've possibly pushed them to do something like this is disruptive and unhelpful as it's focusing too much care and concern onto the guilty parties feelings, mindset, and situation.

Simply because you view it in a particular fashion doesn't give you universal dominion over what is "helpful" or "disruptive" regarding the situation. You're issues with people speculating about their stances on America or ties to Islam is no different than their issues with your wondering about his isolation and other such things.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Grant said:
In fact you don't know what he said or didn't say. Everything so far is hearsay and we have no idea what he said in his private conversations, especially those with his brother. It seems obvious that he did have some strong feelings however, and it would not be unjustified to feel that the word "hate" might not be a factor in his decision to murder innocent Americans.
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The statement that I was debating with others was from an interview that I posted so yes, I do know what he said.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Zyphlin said:
To be fair, disruptive and unhelpful are rather subjective. People trying to find peace of mind in a way opposite of you is disruptive. To others, wringing ones hands wondering what could've made these guys feel so disconnected, what could've possibly made them feel at odds with america or some of the culture, what could've possibly pushed them to do something like this is disruptive and unhelpful as it's focusing too much care and concern onto the guilty parties feelings, mindset, and situation.

Simply because you view it in a particular fashion doesn't give you universal dominion over what is "helpful" or "disruptive" regarding the situation. You're issues with people speculating about their stances on America or ties to Islam is no different than their issues with your wondering about his isolation and other such things.
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I don't have an issue with people speculating on their stances on America or ties to Islam. I was the first person to post an interview with suspect #1 where he talks about Islam and his problems with the United States. Moreover, after someone brought that interview up again, I specifically said that it might shed light on their motivations. I have issues with people injecting attitudes into an otherwise attitude free environment. That is disruptive and unhelpful whereas working together to find info and politely discussing theories is the opposite.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

solletica said:
Because there's no such thing as "American culture." .
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My goodness, what an extraordinarily ignorant statement.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
That is disruptive and unhelpful whereas working together to find info and politely discussing theories is the opposite.
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That I can agree with. I don't like a lot of speculation at the start of these things...but we're now 4 days in with actual names and information beginning to come out. I can understand speculation of all kinds occuring. It definitely would be nice if people didn't put on a huge attitude when they dislike the speculation of someone elses in this thread as it has been rather even toned for most of the day.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
Perhaps they do, but I wasn't debating that. I was debating that he actually said that he "hated Americans."
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But how can you debate what he said when you don't know what he said. Maybe he did say it at one time, maybe he didn't. Neither you or I know.

Therefore we can only conclude his feelings by his actions, and everything appears to point to some level of hatred.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Grant said:
But how can you debate what he said when you don't know what he said. Maybe he did say it at one time, maybe he didn't. Neither you or I know.

Therefore we can only conclude his feelings by his actions, and everything appears to point to some level of hatred.
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I don't think you understand. We were debating his words in a SPECIFIC INTERVIEW. In that interview, he did not say that he "hated Americans."

You know what? It doesn't even matter. I've repeated myself several times.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Zyphlin said:
That I can agree with. I don't like a lot of speculation at the start of these things...but we're now 4 days in with actual names and information beginning to come out. I can understand speculation of all kinds occuring. It definitely would be nice if people didn't put on a huge attitude when they dislike the speculation of someone elses in this thread as it has been rather even toned for most of the day.
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Agreed. When the bombings first happened, I avoided speculation for the most part because there was literally no information to go by. At this point, I think speculation makes sense and is appropriate. We have names, pictures, hometowns, religion, etc. - a lot to think about. Even so, I'm not willing to conclude anything even if a theory seems to me to be "obvious" or "100% certain". I'm also weary of my own and others' prejudices. I've been reading a lot all over the internet and quite a few are using this opportunity to confirm their prejudices - that is troubling to me.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Uncle live at press conference on CNN.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
Agreed. When the bombings first happened, I avoided speculation for the most part because there was literally no information to go by. At this point, I think speculation makes sense and is appropriate. We have names, pictures, hometowns, religion, etc. - a lot to think about. Even so, I'm not willing to conclude anything even if a theory seems to me to be "obvious" or "100% certain". I'm also weary of my own and others' prejudices. I've been reading a lot all over the internet and quite a few are using this opportunity to confirm their prejudices - that is troubling to me.
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I'm hearing that the younger brother became a naturalized citizen of the US, and the family has been living in MA for a number of years (at least 8). I'll have to try to source it later when Ilm not on my phone.
 
Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Hatuey said:
To be honest, I'd say I'm shocked at this being a Chechen Muslim. They're not really into blowing up Westerners as much as their Arab/African counterparts.
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I'm not a bit shocked. There are Muslims all over the world that hate Americans.
 
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