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Thread: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    I'd like to post this for those liberals whom are in here saying that gun grabbing is not the goal....My friends it has already happened....

    We've heard it over and over again, particularly on shows like Morning Joe. Anyone who thinks that the government is "coming to take your guns" is a paranoid loon, watching for black helicopters and guarding their sheep from soldiers. Unfortunately for those formerly right leaning, Second Amendment minded folks who bought into this story, reality has come screaming up from behind well ahead of schedule.
    Following the passage of "The SAFE Act" in New York State, Big Brother got busy pretty quickly grabbing up the guns. Of course nobody was reporting on it very much until they managed to collect them from the wrong guy and a judge made them give them back.
    BUFFALO, N.Y. -- Thursday, a state Supreme Court Judge ruled guns seized from David Lewis, 35, must be returned to him after he was incorrectly identified as violating the mental health provision of the SAFE Act.
    "We know that from the health care agency to the State Police, there was some kind of breach," said Lewis' attorney, Jim Tresmond.
    I don't know how much more chilling that lede could be, really. This isn't some worry about the government possibly confiscating guns. These are guns that were already confiscated by the government. But if you think that's as bad as it gets, guess again. Here's why his guns were taken.
    Tresmond says his client was ordered to turn in his weapons last week because he was once on anti-anxiety medication, which is a violation of the SAFE Act. Wednesday, State Police informed the Erie County Clerk's Office that it made a mistake when it said Lewis was in violation of the state's new gun law.
    For all of our more liberal leaning readers who continue to ask "what's so bad" about universal background checks before we've even seen the specifics, this is your answer. In New York, you can be placed on a "list"of people with no Second Amendment rights on the say so of any doctor who has questions. And it already happened to David Lewis. Thankfully, he's getting his guns back... for now. But what is the larger effect of this if we put it on a national scale?


    Read more: Blog: Gun confiscation begins in New York
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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Which would go directly back to my original story where a citizen was engaging in open carry with a slung rifle and was arrested, his weapon confiscated without receipt and told it would be destroyed....in Texas. We dont need more laws because the ones we have are not enforced properly. So why do we need more when officials dont even know the laws in their own jurisdiction?

    Your false rhetoric would be that Manchin does nothing to restrict gun ownership when you know it does and it will. Thats false rhetoric. Because you are trying to spin your way around it by offering up ammendments that may protect a gun owner when there are numerous others that restrict, such as restrictions upon private sales of guns. No, youre not getting an apology. You are willfully engaging in lies of ommission to bolster the argument for a law that couldnt even get unanimous democrat support.


    Shut up, the case is closed when the thread is. Quit trying to tell everyone in the thread how to post.
    Wasn't this guy in TX the one that he and his son were on a hike in rural TX when the police approached him? I heard about that...I find it chilling that at one point he asked about the law, and the cop responded "I am the law"....

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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Maybe later I can go on your snipe hunt, but not at the moment.
    Thank you for agreeing with me that what you allege did not happen.

    Easy, There is language in the bill, that was shot down BTW, that stated something to the effect that if you, or a family member has ever taken, or been proscribed Psychotropic drugs then you would be disqualified from purchasing a gun. Now, you tell me with all of the over proscribing of any of these drugs, such as Ambien for sleep as an example, how that is not making it harder?
    I consider that to be different from extending background checks. When I think of increased background checks, I think of every sale needing a check, not increasing the requirements to pass it.

    But, if that's true, it's a fair point you make (though I'd point out the mental illness portion of gun control is something the pro gun crowd has been clamoring for). But it's not really how I was intending.

    ...Shall not be infringed. Nuff said.
    That doesn't mean it cannot be regulated. You don't have a right to any weapon you choose any time you want it. I do not agree with you on this and neither do the multiple laws we have in this country which regulate guns.

    This is a myth.
    It's not a myth, it was in the Manchin-Toomey amendment.

    Nonsense. If the current background check is now in effect, and not stopping illegal guns, then one can only conclude that this redundant legislation is only another knee jerk reaction that will largely do nothing but infringe law abiding citizens.
    The current background check has gaping holes in it. That's the point. If I give you a cup with holes in the bottom and duct tape and tell you to fill the cup with water, are you just going to pour the water in the cup over and over and then say "this cup cannot hold water"? Or would you use the tape to cover the holes the best you could, and then pour the water in?

    You cannot say we shouldn't use the duct tape because the cup doesn't hold water. The entire point of the duct tape is to close the holes. Similarly, you cannot say we shouldn't fix the holes in existing legislation because the current legislation isn't working optimally. It makes no sense.

    Funny isn't it how these recent crimes that sparked this were carried out in some of the most restrictive areas for gun ownership in the country? Did increased registration prevent this? No.
    I don't see how that's funny, either in the amusing or ironic sense. All the says to me is that we cannot piecemeal gun legislation from one state to the next, but instead need a consistent set of laws across the country, especially now that people are more mobile than every before. But I'm not really sure what your statement has to do with mine.

    And I am saying that they wouldn't do a thing...CT, and CO are registration states. Didn't stop those did it?
    Nothing will stop it completely. That is such a fallacy of the pro gun crowd, to think anyone is arguing that any legislation will stop everything. The point isn't to stop it, but to minimize it.

    Clearly you don't own any guns. Because if you did, you'd know that it is NOT as easy as buying a Big Gulp
    Americans for Responsible Solutions Guess how long it took me to complete a background check

    My bad. It's as easy as playing the lottery and buying a Big Gulp.

    ....I have two weapons, one is a 12 gauge pump that I bought in Maryland, submitted a background check, and was registered.
    Wait a second...

    So you're telling me a background check and registering your gun DIDN'T prevent you from obtaining your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Which would go directly back to my original story where a citizen was engaging in open carry with a slung rifle and was arrested, his weapon confiscated without receipt and told it would be destroyed....in Texas. We dont need more laws because the ones we have are not enforced properly. So why do we need more when officials dont even know the laws in their own jurisdiction?
    What does this have to do with what I said regarding 2nd Amendment rights for all and me asking you why you want to restrict the mentally ill from being allowed to exercise their rights? You keep accusing me of diverting the thread and trying to set my own parameters and all that, but you just mentioned something which appears to have had nothing to do with anything I asked you. I don't understand why you posted this in response to me, perhaps you could clear it up?

    Your false rhetoric would be that Manchin does nothing to restrict gun ownership when you know it does and it will. Thats false rhetoric.
    Except that's not what I said. Here's what I actually said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    As far as your sledgehammer goes, you do realize that quite a bit of that legislation actually supported gun rights, correct? I don't think the Manchin-Toomey bill was a sledgehammer nearly as much as it was a flyswatter with a hole in the middle.
    Now I know I've said this multiple times. But maybe you just forgot, I know you sometimes struggle to remember what has been posted. So now that you know what I said, which is completely different from what you accused me of saying, can you please admit you were wrong?

    You are willfully engaging in lies
    Is this how all of the pro gun crowd is on the Internet? Whenever you've been clearly shown to be wrong, you just start calling people liars? Do you realize how sad it appears when you intentionally misquoted what I said to try and save face and then accuse me of being the liar?

    Shut up, the case is closed when the thread is. Quit trying to tell everyone in the thread how to post.
    I wasn't telling anyone how to post, I was merely returning the phrase when it was made to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I'd like to post this for those liberals whom are in here saying that gun grabbing is not the goal....My friends it has already happened....
    So...gun grabbing is what happens when the authorities give back possessions they acknowledge they shouldn't have taken?

    Some of you gun people have a very weird sense of reality.

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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Thank you for agreeing with me that what you allege did not happen.
    Mistaken victory on your part. Not allowing you to lead me around to what you want me to do, doesn't imply that you are either correct, or victorious on the matter.

    I consider that to be different from extending background checks. When I think of increased background checks, I think of every sale needing a check, not increasing the requirements to pass it.
    So, if I want to sell my shotgun to my son, you want me to go to a dealer, pay a fee, and have the dealer BC my son whom also will pay a fee to get the check, probably cost more to have the checks than the gun would be sold for....All so you can say to yourself, that you did something, that likely will NOT have any effect on illegal guns in this country....Just like libs to always think of new ways to have their hands in my pockets.

    But, if that's true, it's a fair point you make (though I'd point out the mental illness portion of gun control is something the pro gun crowd has been clamoring for). But it's not really how I was intending.
    What do you mean "if"? You haven't read the bill? Or you haven't had your leftest buddies on MSDNC tell you what to think about it? Either way you just disqualified yourself from discussing the topic.

    That doesn't mean it cannot be regulated. You don't have a right to any weapon you choose any time you want it. I do not agree with you on this and neither do the multiple laws we have in this country which regulate guns.
    Some of which are proper, some of which are infringement. Just because progressives have been successful in passing garbage doesn't mean it is proper.

    It's not a myth, it was in the Manchin-Toomey amendment.
    How would you know? You clearly didn't read it.

    The current background check has gaping holes in it.
    Such as?

    That's the point. If I give you a cup with holes in the bottom and duct tape and tell you to fill the cup with water, are you just going to pour the water in the cup over and over and then say "this cup cannot hold water"? Or would you use the tape to cover the holes the best you could, and then pour the water in?
    No system is perfect, but we need to understand that everything we pass has unintended consequence...Liberals never seem to think that part through....

    You cannot say we shouldn't use the duct tape because the cup doesn't hold water. The entire point of the duct tape is to close the holes. Similarly, you cannot say we shouldn't fix the holes in existing legislation because the current legislation isn't working optimally. It makes no sense.
    We should refrain from passing laws in the heat of any particular tragedy. Just as when a loved one passes away, they say you shouldn't make any big decisions.....

    I don't see how that's funny, either in the amusing or ironic sense. All the says to me is that we cannot piecemeal gun legislation from one state to the next, but instead need a consistent set of laws across the country, especially now that people are more mobile than every before. But I'm not really sure what your statement has to do with mine.
    Central government is not what this country is...If you want that move.

    Nothing will stop it completely. That is such a fallacy of the pro gun crowd, to think anyone is arguing that any legislation will stop everything. The point isn't to stop it, but to minimize it.
    Completely? hell, it won't even slow it down...Which poses the question what is the true underlying agenda here....We know full well what that is don't we.

    Americans for Responsible Solutions Guess how long it took me to complete a background check

    My bad. It's as easy as playing the lottery and buying a Big Gulp.
    Ah yes, Bloomberg and his merry band of fallacious, heavy handed liars...He already started grabbing guns...

    Wait a second...

    So you're telling me a background check and registering your gun DIDN'T prevent you from obtaining your weapon?
    I am not a criminal, so I didn't have a problem....But there are plenty of cases, as there are with anything knee jerk like this where innocent law abiding adults get caught up in the system. The question should be why are you so eager to trample others rights?

    So...gun grabbing is what happens when the authorities give back possessions they acknowledge they shouldn't have taken?

    Some of you gun people have a very weird sense of reality.
    So I see you completely ignored the meat of the story...The man had to take it to court to get his weapons back...I am sure all of that costs money. What of those who don't have the means to fight it? I guess to you their rights don't matter. Reality? pfft, yeah right....
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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Except that's not what I said. Here's what I actually said:

    Now I know I've said this multiple times. But maybe you just forgot, I know you sometimes struggle to remember what has been posted. So now that you know what I said, which is completely different from what you accused me of saying, can you please admit you were wrong?
    What does "that" refer to? Because it looks like it refers to Manchin-Toomey which is what I referenced.

    Is this how all of the pro gun crowd is on the Internet? Whenever you've been clearly shown to be wrong, you just start calling people liars? Do you realize how sad it appears when you intentionally misquoted what I said to try and save face and then accuse me of being the liar?
    What does "that" refer to? You answer and then I will.

    I wasn't telling anyone how to post, I was merely returning the phrase when it was made to me.
    You were trying to shut down conversation. Quit prevaricating.


    So...gun grabbing is what happens when the authorities give back possessions they acknowledge they shouldn't have taken?
    Actually without lengthy and costly court fights they dont get them back. Which is almost exactly why the 2nd is so unequivocal about shall not be infringed.


    Some of you gun people have a very weird sense of reality.
    That almost seems like bigotry.

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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Mistaken victory on your part. Not allowing you to lead me around to what you want me to do, doesn't imply that you are either correct, or victorious on the matter.
    A snipe hunt is when you take someone to go looking for something which doesn't exist. You said I offered you a chance to go looking for something which doesn't exist, which clearly means I didn't post anything which could not be supported with facts.

    It's not a mistaken victory, it's simply a case of me taking your words at their meaning.

    So, if I want to sell my shotgun to my son, you want me to go to a dealer, pay a fee, and have the dealer BC my son whom also will pay a fee to get the check, probably cost more to have the checks than the gun would be sold for
    No, because I've already said multiple times in this thread I'd be happy to have tax dollars pay for a background check.

    Just like libs to always think of new ways to have their hands in my pockets.
    And just like a pro gun supporter to live in their own reality, where truth never gets in the way of a good story.

    Now that we've proven we can both make ridiculous and baseless claims, do you think we can just discuss the issue?

    What do you mean "if"? You haven't read the bill? Or you haven't had your leftest buddies on MSDNC tell you what to think about it? Either way you just disqualified yourself from discussing the topic.
    You do realize I don't consider myself left or right, a liberal or conservative, don't you? It amazes me how much hatred people like you have for anyone who simply disagrees with you.

    Some of which are proper, some of which are infringement. Just because progressives have been successful in passing garbage doesn't mean it is proper.
    But it does mean it's legal. And once we establish regulating automatic rifles, C4 and grenade launchers is legal, then it's easy to make the next step.

    You don't have the right to simply say "I want it, therefor I should have it". It does not work that way.

    How would you know? You clearly didn't read it.
    I did read it, actually. In fact, I even quoted sections of it to Opportunity Cost. Once more, your reality and what is proven true do not seem to align.

    Such as?
    What do you mean "such as?" You haven't read the bill? Or you haven't had your rightest buddies on Fox News tell you what to think about it?


    Have I made my point yet? But to answer your question, the fact somewhere up to 40% of guns in this country are transferred in ownership without a background check would be what I consider "gaping holes".

    No system is perfect
    And only fools would would stop trying to make it perfect.

    We should refrain from passing laws in the heat of any particular tragedy.
    Since these tragedies are happening at an alarming frequency, this certainly is convenient for you, isn't it? The fact is, this argument is beyond stupid, because tragedies are happening all the time. A tragedy is the BEST time to examine what we're doing right and what we're doing wrong, and finding ways to fix it. Only a moron would say, "well, I know I failed this time, but as long as I don't change anything, I know I won't fail next time".

    You don't strike me as a moron, you strike me as being fairly intelligent (if a little confused). So why are you repeating this nonsense?

    Central government is not what this country is...If you want that move.
    You're just denying to yourself at this point if you believe that. The country our founders envisioned does not exist today, and quite frankly, could not exist today. And I believe our founding fathers would be appalled at the idea of a citizenry which is not willing to adapt with the times.

    Completely? hell, it won't even slow it down
    I believe it would, and there are plenty of countries to support my belief.

    Which poses the question what is the true underlying agenda here....We know full well what that is don't we.
    No, "we" don't. But I would love to hear whichever conspiracy theory you believe.

    Ah yes, Bloomberg and his merry band of fallacious, heavy handed liars...He already started grabbing guns...
    Again, you and reality don't seem to mesh well. What does Bloomberg have to do with being able to purchase a gun in 5 and a half minutes? I don't understand.

    I am not a criminal, so I didn't have a problem
    THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT!?!?!?

    Excuse the "shouting" I just wanted you to pay particular attention to what you just said. You just said going through a background check and registering your gun did not cause you a problem. So why in the world are you fighting this?

    The question should be why are you so eager to trample others rights?
    But your rights were not trampled, so on what basis do you claim others' will be? Because it MIGHT happen? I'm sorry, that's a terrible argument in light of the thousands of people killed every year with a gun.

    So I see you completely ignored the meat of the story...The man had to take it to court to get his weapons back...I am sure all of that costs money. What of those who don't have the means to fight it? I guess to you their rights don't matter. Reality? pfft, yeah right....
    No, I just focused on the important part, but you just don't like the fact you were wrong. You posted a "gun grab" which really wasn't. It's not my fault you cannot twist the facts into something they are not.

    By the way, if the person doesn't have the money for court, how did they buy a gun?
    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    What does "that" refer to? Because it looks like it refers to Manchin-Toomey which is what I referenced.
    The quote of mine I posted is what led to our discussion about whether I was speaking rhetoric or fact. I've proven I was speaking fact. So now it's your turn to apologize. You were 100% wrong. Just admit it. The longer you try to dance around the fact you were wrong, the more you just prove yourself a gun "nut". Now I don't want to think of you as a nut, but it's hard to come to any other conclusion when you refuse the facts which are right in front of you.
    You were trying to shut down conversation. Quit prevaricating.


    No, I wasn't, I was merely repeating his words for effect.

    Actually without lengthy and costly court fights they dont get them back.
    Really? I've looked at a couple of different articles and it doesn't say anything about the length or the cost. Before I respond to this, could you please cite where you found this?

    That almost seems like bigotry.
    You do realize you lied about what I said in order to be able to accuse me of being a liar based upon your fictitious representation of my claim, right?

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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    In my opinion, if a person is considered to be so dangerous that we can't trust him to walk armed among us, then he really shouldn't be walking among us at all.

    Also, I don't subscribe to the "once a criminal, always a criminal" mentality. Once a person has paid his debt and been deemed rehabilitated enough to rejoin society, he should be free again.

    The whole need for background checks is based on this growing class of criminals for life.

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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    In my opinion, if a person is considered to be so dangerous that we can't trust him to walk armed among us, then he really shouldn't be walking among us at all.

    Also, I don't subscribe to the "once a criminal, always a criminal" mentality. Once a person has paid his debt and been deemed rehabilitated enough to rejoin society, he should be free again.

    The whole need for background checks is based on this growing class of criminals for life.

    Problem is, we don't do rehabilitation very well, and mostly just tend to warehouse criminals for X years under conditions that do not often assist that much in reforming them.

    Pragmatically speaking, there ought to be two classes of criminals - those who can be rehabilitated and made safe and productive members of society again with some reasonable effort... and dead criminals.

    The former should not be released from a reform institution until there is strong and near-certain evidence of major changes in their mindset, behavior and intentions... in short, until we're pretty damn sure they're safe to let out as free citizens again, including the restoration of all rights. If they never get to that point, they never get out.

    Unfortunately that isn't current reality...
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-20-13 at 05:56 PM.

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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Wasn't this guy in TX the one that he and his son were on a hike in rural TX when the police approached him? I heard about that...I find it chilling that at one point he asked about the law, and the cop responded "I am the law"....

    I'm reminded of the Lucifer Effect, as described by Philip Zimbardo after having conducted the Stanford Prison Experiment back in the 70's.

    Zealous young cops, having been convinced that they are on a mission from god, will quickly escalate the police ego. They can't help it, because it seems to have been programmed into the human condition.

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    re: Mother of Sandy Hook Victim Delivers White House Weekly Address.....[W322]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    The quote of mine I posted is what led to our discussion about whether I was speaking rhetoric or fact. I've proven I was speaking fact. So now it's your turn to apologize. You were 100% wrong. Just admit it. The longer you try to dance around the fact you were wrong, the more you just prove yourself a gun "nut". Now I don't want to think of you as a nut, but it's hard to come to any other conclusion when you refuse the facts which are right in front of you.
    I see you did not answer what "that" referred to. Your refusal to answer and dodge is noted---it is in fact, Manchin-Toomey, making my point a valid one.

    No, I wasn't, I was merely repeating his words for effect.
    Except I didnt use those words, so you are still prevaricating.

    Really? I've looked at a couple of different articles and it doesn't say anything about the length or the cost. Before I respond to this, could you please cite where you found this?
    If you are charged, if you want to fight it, you will be paying a lot of attorneys fees and quite possibly court fees. Stop being obtuse.

    You do realize you lied about what I said in order to be able to accuse me of being a liar based upon your fictitious representation of my claim, right?
    Really because you seem bigoted not only towards gun owners but anyone that defends them.

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