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Thread: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by Heebie Jeebie View Post
    And yet they specifically excluded government roads,buildings and other property in the bill.
    Because ultimately TAXPAYERS pay for the government to own and operate those properties. Which is what I meant by redundant. It is redundant for the government to tax itself - those costs ultimately will be passed down to the taxpayer anyway.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Yes, but due to Mother Nature there IS rain, so this is irrelevant.
    So it is not necesssarily wrong to call it a rain tax since that is what causes the run off (well except when it drizzles or only lightly rains which is most of the time) and is the logic behind them taxing roofs, driveway, patios and other objects.

    Since the bill is designed to reduce nitrogen and phosphate run off taxing people who don't have yards (2nd floor condo owners for example) or people who don't put any chemical on their yards or have buildings with storm water capture systems seems a bit harsh.

    Better not have your car parked in the yard when they do the satellite survey, you'll pay more in taxes!
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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    It's inaccurate to say that impervious surfaces CAUSE pollution, but they contribute massively to it. Think about it, in the absence of impervious surfaces, the effects of pollutants (lets used pesticides herbicides and fertilizers for example) are generally diluted because for the most part they just sink into the ground. Now of course it still reaches the water table and the rest of the ecosystem, but what impervious surfaces do is they allow enable rainwater to pool together and collect all the pollutants on the ground in their path and concentrate it, so that when that rainwater reaches the rivers and watershed the effect of the pollution is magnified exponentially. Essentially what this does is concentrate the effect of pollution on bodies of water like rivers and bays rather than allowing the pollution to be dispersed.
    Impermeable surfaces only have a strong impact as you are suggesting in areas that use pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers heavily. Those would be farm areas...with less impermeable surfaces. Im sorry Im not buying that Maryland has massive concetrations of pollutants from suburban lawns and townships. And farms are such that the polutants would be dispersed. This is a bad law SB. Keep tackling the industrial misuse but this doesnt pass the smell test.

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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    And the amount of tax you pay is directly correlated with how much runoff your property generates.
    No it not, it's calculated on the surface area of the roof, driveway and other things. It has nothing to do with how much actually runs off your property and ends up in the bay. Just have a potential drainage issue doesn't mean you have a drainage issue.
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Uhh, is this a tax everytime it rains? or merely just a tax to help fund diaster management in case of flooding?
    From what I can tell its every time it rains? I don't really know.
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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Impermeable surfaces only have a strong impact as you are suggesting in areas that use pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers heavily. Those would be farm areas...with less impermeable surfaces. Im sorry Im not buying that Maryland has massive concetrations of pollutants from suburban lawns and townships. And farms are such that the polutants would be dispersed. This is a bad law SB. Keep tackling the industrial misuse but this doesnt pass the smell test.
    OC - Maryland like most other coastal areas has a lot of water. No matter where you live, whether that be in the countryside or in the suburbs, you're going to have a creek or a river basically running through your backyard - all part of the Chesapeake Bay watershed. And people here love their lawns. And yes, based on what i've observed over time looking at the creeks near where I've lived and gone to school, it's progressively gotten worse. Not so much because suburbanites are using more pesticides than farmers, but more because there's been much more development going on. And I live in the suburbs.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 04-12-13 at 04:12 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    The less it rains the higher the concentrations of the stuff they're complaining about actually get into the watershed when it does rain. So they're taxing that which they should pray for more of, causing higher taxes. So, rather than take action to reduce the pollutants, they're taxing the natural means of abatement. All of us should pray it rains like hell in MD.
    The tax isn't based on the amount of rain, it is based on the size of buildings and pavement on a property. I believe the idea is that buildings and pavements prevent water from seeping underground where natural processes can filter out many toxics. Rain water that runs off into storm drains that do not not connect to a sewage treatment facilities end up washing toxics into the bay. Presumably the tax will be used to treat the storm water before it enters the bay.

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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by Heebie Jeebie View Post
    No it not, it's calculated on the surface area of the roof, driveway and other things. It has nothing to do with how much actually runs off your property and ends up in the bay. Just have a potential drainage issue doesn't mean you have a drainage issue.
    The more square footage of runoff surfaces your property has the more runoff it generates. It's not an exact calculation by any means of course, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than an across the board income tax increase.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Impermeable surfaces only have a strong impact as you are suggesting in areas that use pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers heavily. Those would be farm areas...with less impermeable surfaces. Im sorry Im not buying that Maryland has massive concetrations of pollutants from suburban lawns and townships. And farms are such that the polutants would be dispersed. This is a bad law SB. Keep tackling the industrial misuse but this doesnt pass the smell test.
    It's just another tax, it will have no impact on the Bay. There have been gobs of grants and taxes to 'heal' the Bay, they just get wasted like these taxes will be wastedbeacuse ~80% of the flow into the Bay doesn't originate in Maryland. In 2004 they passed the Flush tax to do basically the same thing this is suppose to do. The flush tax was recently doubled to $60 per account. It has raised billions and has done nothing. This tax is estimated to raise $14 billion and will have the same effect, nada. It's standard procedure for Maryland.

    Most politicians use the phrase 'it's for the children' when they want something unpopular and stupid rammed through. In Maryland it 'save the Bay'.
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
    P. J. O'Rourke

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    Re: Maryland decides to tax residents when it rains

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The more square footage of runoff surfaces your property has the more runoff it generates. It's not an exact calculation by any means of course, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than an across the board income tax increase.
    What if the only thing that runs off is the actual rain water?

    This bill makes NO sense as it excludes the entire Eastern shore where most of the harmful runoff that is generated in Maryland comes from. It does keep MOM from raising income taxes in the same year he is raising the gasoline tax, along with numerous other taxes and fees.
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
    P. J. O'Rourke

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