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Thread: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Joechilli View Post
    In January 2005, the group announced the conclusion of its search. The ISG stated that while it had, "not found evidence that Saddam possessed WMD stocks in 2003," they acknowledged "the possibility that some weapons existed in Iraq, although not of a militarily significant capability."
    The key words in that sentence... basically ups no WMDs, but there might be but we cant find them and if there are any, then they are most likely so degraded that they could not hurt a fly.
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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    Iraqi Junior Army officers were trained in United States and Russia in chemical warfare during the 1960s. The Iraqi army then formed the Chemical Corps.

    Al Muthanna State Establishment (MSE) oversaw operations for producing biological agents from 1986 onwards

    Al Muthanna’s ability to produce chemical weapons ended with the Gulf war, and soon afterwards the UN resolution proscribed Iraq’s ability to produce chemical weapons. The majority of the Al Muthanna complex was bombed during Desert Storm, completely incapacitating Iraq’s chemical weapon production capabilities.

    From 1992 to 1994, UNSCOM’s Chemical Destruction Group (CDG) oversaw destruction operations. A portion of the facility was transformed into a CW agent destruction facility. An incinerator was constructed in the summer of 1992 for the destruction of mustard agent at the munitions filling location. Chemical munitions stored throughout Iraq were to be gathered and destroyed at Al Muthanna.

    ■Between 1992 and 1994 the facility was the primary collection and destruction site for all declared CW agents, precursor chemicals, and chemical production equipment.

    ■Between 1992 and 1994 and again in 1996, the CDG oversaw destruction of 30,000 pieces of ordnance, 480,000 liters of chemical agents, and more than 2 million liters of chemical precursors. Eventually, most of the facilities at the complex the Iraqi’s destroyed and sold for scrap.

    ■Equipment that survived Desert Storm was tagged by UN or destroyed, but the UN was never able to verify that all equipment purchased for MSE was tagged or destroyed.

    ■Two Cruciform Bunkers were sealed containing munitions too dangerous for destruction.

    ■Bunkers, damaged by coalition bombing, collapsed, concealing unaccounted CW equipment and munitions in the debris. Over the next ten years some of the facilities were razed by the Iraqis. Precise accountability of equipment and munitions is unverifiable, because the National Monitoring Directorate and UNSCOM did not always oversee excavation.

    The entire Al Muthanna mega-facility was the bastion of Iraqi’s chemical weapons development program. During its peak in the late 1980s to early 1990s, it amassed mega-bunkers full of chemical munitions, and provided Iraq with a force multiplier sufficient to counteract Iran’s superior military numbers. Two wars, sanctions and UNSCOM oversight reduced Iraqi’s premier production facility to a stockpile of old damaged and contaminated chemical munitions(sealed in bunkers), a wasteland full of destroyed chemical munitions, razed structures, and unusable war-ravaged facilities. In 1998 Al Tariq State Establishment took over all remaining remnants at Al Muthanna.

    The former Regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. Desert Storm and subsequent UN resolutions and inspections brought many of Iraq’s delivery system programs to a halt. While much of Iraq’s long-range missile inventory and production infrastructure was eliminated, Iraq until late 1991 kept some items hidden to assist future reconstitution of the force. This decision and Iraq’s intransigence during years of inspection left many UN questions unresolved.
    • Coalition airstrikes effectively targeted much of Iraq’s delivery systems infrastructure, and UN inspections
    dramatically impeded further developments of long-range ballistic missiles.
    • It appears to have taken time, but Iraq eventually realized that sanctions were not going to end quickly.
    This forced Iraq to sacrifi ce its long-range delivery force in an attempt to bring about a quick end to the sanctions.
    • After the fl ight of Husayn Kamil in 1995, Iraq admitted that it had hidden Scud-variant missiles and components
    to aid future reconstitution but asserted that these items had been unilaterally destroyed by late 1991.
    The UN could not verify these claims and thereafter became more wary of Iraq’s admissions and instituted a
    Regime of more intrusive inspections.
    • The Iraq Survey Group (ISG) has uncovered no evidence Iraq retained Scud-variant missiles, and debriefings
    of Iraqi officials in addition to some documentation suggest that Iraq did not retain such missiles
    after 1991.

    While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.

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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    It ends up there were WMD's but the MSM and liberals decided that mustard and sarin gas didn't count.

    Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official SaysBy Samantha L. Quigley
    American Forces Press Service

    >" WASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.

    "These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.

    The Chemical Weapons Convention is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. It was signed in 1993 and entered into force in 1997.

    The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.

    "Mustard is a blister agent (that) actually produces burning of any area (where) an individual may come in contact with the agent," he said. It also is potentially fatal if it gets into a person's lungs.

    The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.

    While that's reassuring, the agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said. "We're talking chemical agents here that could be packaged in a different format and have a great effect," he said, referencing the sarin-gas attack on a Japanese subway in the mid-1990s.

    This is true even considering any degradation of the chemical agents that may have occurred, Chu said. It's not known exactly how sarin breaks down, but no matter how degraded the agent is, it's still toxic.

    "Regardless of (how much material in the weapon is actually chemical agent), any remaining agent is toxic," he said. "Anything above zero (percent agent) would prove to be toxic, and if you were exposed to it long enough, lethal."

    Though about 500 chemical weapons - the exact number has not been released publicly - have been found, Maples said he doesn't believe Iraq is a "WMD-free zone."

    "I do believe the former regime did a very poor job of accountability of munitions, and certainly did not document the destruction of munitions," he said. "The recovery program goes on, and I do not believe we have found all the weapons."

    The Defense Intelligence Agency director said locating and disposing of chemical weapons in Iraq is one of the most important tasks servicemembers in the country perform.

    Maples added searches are ongoing for chemical weapons beyond those being conducted solely for force protection.

    There has been a call for a complete declassification of the National Ground Intelligence Center's report on WMD in Iraq. Maples said he believes the director of national intelligence is still considering this option, and has asked Maples to look into producing an unclassified paper addressing the subject matter in the center's report.

    Much of the classified matter was slated for discussion in a closed forum after the open hearings this morning. "< -> Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says

    Defense Intelligence Agency
    National Ground Intelligence Center

    "The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added."

    Badly corroded? Could not be used?, hardly the spell bound WMD 30 minute Armageddon strike purported just before the invasion is it?

    Let us also not forget the backhanded duplicity of giving the Dictator the WMD's in the first place.

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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war



    Courtesy of NeoCon Rupert Murdoch who also runs Fox News


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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Has that secret evidence eluded us up until now? Don't count on it. Unanimous votes in the UN security council about the weapons. Come on even our enemies thought he had them. Bill Clinton even thought so. Drop the subject because you can't win on it.
    Left over weapons, as noted in the OP, not growing and gathering. Make proper distinctions.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    It ends up there were WMD's but the MSM and liberals decided that mustard and sarin gas didn't count.

    Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official SaysBy Samantha L. Quigley
    American Forces Press Service

    >" WASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.

    "These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.

    The Chemical Weapons Convention is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. It was signed in 1993 and entered into force in 1997.

    The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.

    "Mustard is a blister agent (that) actually produces burning of any area (where) an individual may come in contact with the agent," he said. It also is potentially fatal if it gets into a person's lungs.

    The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.

    While that's reassuring, the agent remaining in the weapons would be very valuable to terrorists and insurgents, Maples said. "We're talking chemical agents here that could be packaged in a different format and have a great effect," he said, referencing the sarin-gas attack on a Japanese subway in the mid-1990s.

    This is true even considering any degradation of the chemical agents that may have occurred, Chu said. It's not known exactly how sarin breaks down, but no matter how degraded the agent is, it's still toxic.

    "Regardless of (how much material in the weapon is actually chemical agent), any remaining agent is toxic," he said. "Anything above zero (percent agent) would prove to be toxic, and if you were exposed to it long enough, lethal."

    Though about 500 chemical weapons - the exact number has not been released publicly - have been found, Maples said he doesn't believe Iraq is a "WMD-free zone."

    "I do believe the former regime did a very poor job of accountability of munitions, and certainly did not document the destruction of munitions," he said. "The recovery program goes on, and I do not believe we have found all the weapons."

    The Defense Intelligence Agency director said locating and disposing of chemical weapons in Iraq is one of the most important tasks servicemembers in the country perform.

    Maples added searches are ongoing for chemical weapons beyond those being conducted solely for force protection.

    There has been a call for a complete declassification of the National Ground Intelligence Center's report on WMD in Iraq. Maples said he believes the director of national intelligence is still considering this option, and has asked Maples to look into producing an unclassified paper addressing the subject matter in the center's report.

    Much of the classified matter was slated for discussion in a closed forum after the open hearings this morning. "< -> Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says

    Defense Intelligence Agency
    National Ground Intelligence Center
    I'm sure that we both agree that under certain conditions, an M-60 machine gun is a weapon of mass destruction.

    What Bush & Co offered really were simply weapons of mass distraction. And they worked great!

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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So a military run newspaper justifies the war.. what a shocker! Not exactly brilliant moral making material if they came out and said.. "oh yea your buddy who got his head blown off beside you.. basically died due to a lie".
    It's not a newspaper, it's the news service for the Defense Department where newspapers get their news from.

    If you have a problem don't attack the messenger, attack the message if you don't like the message.

    BTW: My head is still attached. The libs say they are concerned about 5,000 dead, but those are just words considering the left has a poor track record over the past forty five years of not giving a damn about those who serve. What about the Cn'C who signed off on a CIA backed military coup to remove a corrupt leader of a sovereign nation that backfired and resulted in 58,000 American deaths ? He got a complete pass by the left while they blamed his two predecessor's and those who did serve.

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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Joechilli View Post
    "The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added."

    Badly corroded? Could not be used?, hardly the spell bound WMD 30 minute Armageddon strike purported just before the invasion is it?

    Let us also not forget the backhanded duplicity of giving the Dictator the WMD's in the first place.
    Used as "originally intended" which means they couldn't be delivered on target by an artillery gun/howitzer.

    It was the shell casings that were corroded not what was inside the shell casings. Sarin gas and mustard gas are not metals so they can't corrode.

    After 9/11/01 it wasn't the artillery shells that many were scared of but what was inside the artillery shells. They were scared that Al Qaeda would some how get their hands on what was inside the shells. I seriously doubt Al Qaeda was going to put a battery of 155 MM howitzers on the Hudson River in New Jersey and fire artillery rounds filled with sarin and mustard gas on New York City.

    Mustard and sarin gas was found in Iraq and the political left said it didn't count. What would count ? What would meet the definition of the political left of a WMD ? How many grams, ounces, pounds, tons would meet their definition as being a WMD ? They refuse to tell us. They have a political agenda and we have seen since the 1970's the political left keep changing definition of words at a whim to further their political agenda.

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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I'm sure that we both agree that under certain conditions, an M-60 machine gun is a weapon of mass destruction.

    What Bush & Co offered really were simply weapons of mass distraction. And they worked great!
    Who exactly came up with the term "weapons of mass destruction" (WMD) ?

    Before 9/11 in the military community it was always NBC (nuclear, biological, nuclear.)

    I guess any thing that can kill more than one person could be called a WMD. But we have to ask a white beard scratching liberal how many lives would have to be killed befolre that weapopn meets their deffinition as being a WMD, they are the ones who decide now days.

    A biological weapon like anthrax, mustard gas or sarin cause no destruction except to living things. A nuclear detonation would cause a lot of destruction. After that weapon the 16 " guns on a Iowa class battleship would be the most destructive weapon their is. Just one salvo from the 16" gun battery on an Iowa would level a 1/4 square mile of any city.

    Eric Holder's Department of Justice announced they were going to prosecute an American who supposedly fired a RPG in Syria. The DOJ has classified the RPG as a WMD saying since it could be used to shoot down a civilian aircraft with 200 souls on board, it meets the definition as a WMD. I suppose a Boeing 737 is also a WMD because they were used as a weapon to kill 3,000 people on 9/11.

    Who coined the phrase WMD ? Was it just a propaganda phrase to influence and scare people to further an agenda ?
    Last edited by APACHERAT; 04-15-13 at 02:10 PM.

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    Re: Former MI5 chief criticises Blair's defence of the Iraq war

    If Bush and Blair lied about WMD, then they must have had some ulterior motive to invade IRaq. What was it?

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