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Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

PeteEU said:
Are you saying that we should not invest in centuries old energy industries... like oil, which is older than coal?
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Of course I'm not your financial adviser but if old is your interest then peat might be the way to go.

And it had nothing to do with left or right, but nationalistic pride.
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Nationalistic pride? Where does that fit into unprofitable businesses?

When the right were in power they did nothing, because coal was the foundation of the British Empire...
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What would you have had them do?
much how oil is seen as the basic foundation for the US today and all other energy sources are scorned... by among others you.
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My scorn is for politicians who think they can be savvy entrepreneurs with taxpayer dollars, and all those who support them.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Grant said:
Of course I'm not your financial adviser but if old is your interest then peat might be the way to go.
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Hey you are the one calling coal for "old", and all I am reminding you that your favorite energy source... oil, is even older.

Nationalistic pride? Where does that fit into unprofitable businesses?
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LOL have you read a freaking history book? Nationalistic pride has driven unprofitable businesses for centuries. When the colonies became unprofitable to run.. did the British leave them? Of course not they fought tooth and nail to keep them.

What would you have had them do?
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Me? Why are you asking me, you are the one complaining over "old industries" and all I am pointing out that coal was unprofitable in the UK before 1940 and yet both Tories and Labor kept the pits open to fuel their Empire, all in the while they cheated colonies out of oil reserves.

My scorn is for politicians who think they can be savvy entrepreneurs with taxpayer dollars, and all those who support them.
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The you must hate the GOP in the US... the amount of taxpayer money they want to pump into oil and weapons... both of which give massive profits regardless of the subsidies or not. Talk about a waste of taxpayer funds.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

PeteEU said:
-- Look at it this way, subsidizing mines was technically illegal under EEC law and it was not long after that many other industries including mining were basically cut off from massive state subsidies across Europe. --
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I was saving the subsidies under EEC law bit for later but it's one of the areas those who think the mines should have been kept open forever at taxpayer cost never seem to factor into their argument.

So much easier to blame Thatcher for it.

PeteEU said:
-- the hard nosed gestapo tactics that Thatcher and the police used to break the backbone of the miners and basically all resistance to Thatcher was not very democratic, nor in many ways legal under standards today.
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Scargill called a national strike without balloting his members - democratic? Unionised workers in one industry would come out in secondary action for completely unrelated workers: all at taxpayer expense. Democratic?

Unions rather than the electorate would bring down a government - unions where a number of the higher ranking members since turned out to be members of the British Communist Party or KGB agents. Democratic?
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Infinite Chaos said:
I moved no goalposts - you made the claim about how all things are worse. I'll give you some more balanced reading in contrast - figures from the Office of National Statistics.

By the way - I'd still like to see you back up the social / political / foreign policy etc claims you made against Thatcher.
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So, you completely avoid the question, so I'll repeat it. In what way are things better now than then, in any of the categories I claimed otherwise? Unemployment, social and economic equality, child poverty, personal debt. You offer us a Spectator blog which shows that in 2 of those categories I was right, and in the other 2 it mentions nothing. You think it's a great achievement that service sector employment now constitutes about 80% of the total? You think that GDP growth figures give us an accurate picture of living standards? And you think that an increase from 110-130 GBP ($170-$200) weekly household income in 34 years is any kind of achievement?

Boy, you made that very easy!
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Grant said:
The miners might have gained more status had they mined for pearls that weren't there rather than coal that wasn't there.
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Forty per cent of Britain's energy supply today comes from coal. Imported coal.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

It will be 2015 at the present rate before the British economy returns to 2007 levels.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:
So, you completely avoid the question, so I'll repeat it. In what way are things better now than then, in any of the categories I claimed otherwise? Unemployment, social and economic equality, child poverty, personal debt. You offer us a Spectator blog which shows that in 2 of those categories I was right, and in the other 2 it mentions nothing. You think it's a great achievement that service sector employment now constitutes about 80% of the total? You think that GDP growth figures give us an accurate picture of living standards? And you think that an increase from 110-130 GBP ($170-$200) weekly household income in 34 years is any kind of achievement?

Boy, you made that very easy!
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Erm I was waiting for your answers to my original questions. Seems like we have a pattern where you tend to ignore my requests and add even more questions - or worse still, ask me to watch a 50 minute long video instead of giving me a precis.

Categories you mention: Foreign Policy - you claimed things were worse after but the fall of the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall testify to her efforts with Gorbachev, Pope John Paul and Reagan. Mind you, seems your desire to return us to a union led country shows why you think this was a failing. Do you need a link for all the Eastern european leaders who have attributed their national freedoms to her? Do you want a link to the fall of the iron curtain?

Economic and Industrial: we certainly don't have unions bringing democratically elected governments down anymore. Shame for some I guess. We are a free market economy, deregulated - we are not the sick man of europe anymore. Do you want links to this? Our industry has shrunk but we are still the 3rd biggest manufacturing nation in Europe after Italy and Germany. City of London (which many claim is staffed only by the elite) is more egalitarian than it was before the big bang.

Unemployment and Inflation: Unemployment hit highs (as it does in any country undergoing structural readjustment) but inflation was down to 10% in 1990. depending on the month you chose - the percentage number varies.

Poverty and inequality: as stated, our economy was undergoing radical readjustment but poverty relative to median incomes rose. Poverty as compared to real 3rd world poverty.... is another story.

Nonetheless, the UK is in a better place now that it would have been without Thatcher, the adjustments were always going to have to happen. Some argue that it should have happened slower but the unions had already stopped Jim Callaghan's efforts in the Wilson government. Our industries produced poor quality goods then and labour relations were appalling.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

From The Economist of 13 April.

Margaret Thatcher
Freedom fighter
Now especially, the world needs to hold fast to Margaret Thatcher’s principles
Apr 13th 2013 |From the print edition

ONLY a handful of peacetime politicians can claim to have changed the world. Margaret Thatcher was one. She transformed not just her own Conservative Party, but the whole of British politics. Her enthusiasm for privatisation launched a global revolution and her willingness to stand up to tyranny helped to bring an end to the Soviet Union. Winston Churchill won a war, but he never created an “-ism”.

The essence of Thatcherism was to oppose the status quo and bet on freedom—odd, since as a prim, upwardly mobile striver, she was in some ways the embodiment of conservatism. She thought nations could become great only if individuals were set free. Unlike Churchill’s famous pudding, her struggles had a theme: the right of individuals to run their own lives, as free as possible from micromanagement by the state.

Continued....


http://Remembering the Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher: No ordinary politician
 
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Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Jack Hays said:
From The Economist of 13 April.

Margaret Thatcher
Freedom fighter
Now especially, the world needs to hold fast to Margaret Thatcher’s principles
Apr 13th 2013 |From the print edition

ONLY a handful of peacetime politicians can claim to have changed the world. Margaret Thatcher was one. She transformed not just her own Conservative Party, but the whole of British politics. Her enthusiasm for privatisation launched a global revolution and her willingness to stand up to tyranny helped to bring an end to the Soviet Union. Winston Churchill won a war, but he never created an “-ism”.

The essence of Thatcherism was to oppose the status quo and bet on freedom—odd, since as a prim, upwardly mobile striver, she was in some ways the embodiment of conservatism. She thought nations could become great only if individuals were set free. Unlike Churchill’s famous pudding, her struggles had a theme: the right of individuals to run their own lives, as free as possible from micromanagement by the state.

Continued.......

http://Remembering the Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher: No ordinary politician
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Good evening, Jack. :2wave:

Excellent article! Thanks for posting it, as I do not subscribe to the Economist.

Did you see what is being called a snub of Argentina, because they have not been invited to attend her funeral? Some people carry long grudges! :shock:
 
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Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

polgara said:
Good evening, Jack. :2wave:

Excellent article! Thanks for posting it, as I do not subscribe to the Economist.

Did you see what is being called a snub of Argentina, because they have not been invited to attend her funeral? Some people carry long grudges! :shock:
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Good evening, Polgara.

Argentina seeks support for their aggression against the Falklands, a part of the United Kingdom. No invitation until the Argentines renounce their aggression.:cool:
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Jack Hays said:
From The Economist of 13 April.

Margaret Thatcher
Freedom fighter
Now especially, the world needs to hold fast to Margaret Thatcher’s principles
Apr 13th 2013 |From the print edition

ONLY a handful of peacetime politicians can claim to have changed the world. Margaret Thatcher was one. She transformed not just her own Conservative Party, but the whole of British politics. Her enthusiasm for privatisation launched a global revolution and her willingness to stand up to tyranny helped to bring an end to the Soviet Union. Winston Churchill won a war, but he never created an “-ism”.

The essence of Thatcherism was to oppose the status quo and bet on freedom—odd, since as a prim, upwardly mobile striver, she was in some ways the embodiment of conservatism. She thought nations could become great only if individuals were set free. Unlike Churchill’s famous pudding, her struggles had a theme: the right of individuals to run their own lives, as free as possible from micromanagement by the state.

Continued......

http://Remembering the Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher: No ordinary politician
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Calling the results of "Thatcherism" prosperity is the real problem.................
 
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Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Bonzai said:
My day has been satisfactory, and yours?
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I really got a lot done today! Kinda proud of myself...my taxes aren't ready yet, though, which meant another trip to the CPA! God, I detest tax season! It kinda ruins Spring, you know? :thumbdown:
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

polgara said:
I really got a lot done today! Kinda proud of myself...my taxes aren't ready yet, though, which meant another trip to the CPA! God, I detest tax season! It kinda ruins Spring, you know? :thumbdown:
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I used to do my own but now I have my attorney do them. It's expensive, but..............
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Bonzai said:
I used to do my own but now I have my attorney do them. It's expensive, but..............
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...worth it! Besides they know all the rules, and I don't. I guess I pay for peace of mind, mostly. :2brickwal:
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

polgara said:
-- Did you see what is being called a snub of Argentina, because they have not been invited to attend her funeral? Some people carry long grudges!
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Thatcher's funeral is not a state funeral so there are no obligations to invite everyone. The actual occasion will be more like Diana's or the Queen Mother's funerals. We didn't invite everyone to that either.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Quag said:
Germany was a basket case when Hitler came to power, he turned it into one of the most powerful nations on earth then destroyed it. He was evil.
Thatcher came to power when Britain was a basket case, She turned it around (call her methods wrong and leading in the wrong direction if you want) Then she left power and Britain was not destroyed. She was not evil.
Stop your silly posturing and saying you don't hate anyone when clearly you hate Thatcher and spew hate and vileness.
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Totally and utterly and forever evil, as you know. We are living through the results of her insane policies, as you know. Stop posturing and look at the evil she and her stinking gang did to Britain. Amongst other things, the other countries will never consent to live with the squalid spite and bullying that her forelock-tuggers in England go in for, so she's done for the UK.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
First this is a thread about Margaret Thatcher, second of course I'm wrong if I mentioned there was a Constitution - what I mentioned was a "constitutional right to choose their own future."

Third, if you can stick to Thatcher in a thread about Thatcher, that would be great.
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This is about Maggie and her screw up in Northern Ireland. People wanted to give her credit on Sun.. agreement. Then fail to accepted she had policies contrary to that agreement weeks after signing it. And it was you that brought up the other stuff, not I. But they have no constitutional right if there is no constitution. UK has no constitution but various laws and agreements that can change at anytime. Like, say Irish Republican's voting rights in Northern Ireland. US has a constitution and people have constitutional rights. Both forms struggle with problems but at the end of the day people assert their constitutional rights in court, while the other requires Government to give that right.




Infinite Chaos said:
I have no problem with that, the Shetlanders have little allegiance to Scotland but you were the one claimed England would lose "Forties, Shetland, Moray and Northern Scotland Coast"

To try and bring some relevance back to this, Conservative "England" lost Scotland after Thatcher a while ago. If Scotland (minus the oil bearing Islands that have no allegiance to Edinburgh) go their own way - that is their right in their referendum.
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Yes, England would lose those areas to Scotland. What the Shetlanders do after that requires an agreement between Scotland and them which could take years. Then if Shetland leaves it would take a while after that to decide where they go. So it could be years after that before they would rejoin England or stay independent themselves.
 
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