Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Henry David said:

Wiki offers a definition. You may accept a definition as a fact, but I do not. I see a definition as a starting point, not a statement of facts. Many false definitions are offered up, and while the one offered by Wiki is sorta kinda close, I don't find it complete.

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I wasn't aware that facts had to meet your standards, (relax, it's a joke), but in any case can you show us what is incomplete about it?

Thatcher associated with and spoke highly of Suharto, I think Pinochet, and others of her time that were poor leaders and criminals.

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Citations please.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Penderyn said:

She was the worst human being who has ever lived, anywhere, ever.

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People will certainly remember her for the Killing Fields of Lincolnshire.

or will it be the concentration camps at Colchester and Hammersmith?

Infinite Chaos said:

There is a dichotomy here - if Britons saw her as mean spirited and arrogant, lacking empathy - we wouldn't have voted for her. The milk issue was from 1974 when she stopped free milk for older primary school children. Enough time between 74 and 79 for people to choose not to vote for her if they disagreed this strongly enough. Trouble was Harold Wilson's Labour Govt had stopped free milk for secondary school children 4 years earlier but nobody remembers that. As for the miners and unions - they were election pledges, she campaigned for the popular vote on a manifesto to curb union power.

You need to extend your reading back to the 70's to see why we were fed up; it wasn't just the winter of discontent in 1978/79 that was the problem - go right back to the problems in British Leyland, read up on working practices (including sleeping on the job) poor management, shoddy goods produced in what people lovingly called "British Industry" of the time - Austin Allegro for starters) the 3 day working week, going cap in hand to the IMF,

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I have actually read a little bit about Baroness Thatcher - how reluctant she was to impose sanctions on the Apartheid regime in South Africa - how highly she regarded Pinochet and his murderous fascist regime - but I am not going to argue this with you. My simple point is that she, like all of us, was both good and bad. She has passed away, I wish her spirit peace, and I consider it bad form to speak ill of the recently departed. A discussion for another time perhaps?

I leave you with these words by Thomas Gray.

No further seek his merits to disclose,
Or draw his frailties from their dread abode,
(There they alike in trembling hope repose,)
The bosom of his Father and his God.

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Leo said:

I have actually read a little bit about Baroness Thatcher - how reluctant she was to impose sanctions on the Apartheid regime in South Africa - --

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I bid you adieu but I will leave you FW de Klerk's words on Margaret thatcher in return.

She will be remembered not only as one of Britain's greatest prime ministers but also as a leader whose policies and approach had a significant impact on politics throughout the world. Although she was always a steadfast critic of apartheid, she had a much better grasp of the complexities and geo-strategic realities of South Africa than many of her contemporaries.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Gardener said:

People will certainly remember her for the Killing Fields of Lincolnshire.

or will it be the concentration camps at Colchester and Hammersmith?

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No one's claiming she was a Hitler, but violent repression was certainly a large part of her modus operandum. This shows you what took place...

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

head of joaquin said:

That Morrissey is smarter and more insightful than that dullard Thatcher? Yeah, there is an irony in that.

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Yeah, right, because you personally know therm both. :roll:

Give the hate a rest.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:

No one's claiming she was a Hitler,

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or Pol Pot.

Penderyn has actually indicated she is WORSE than either.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Henry David said:

I see a definition as a starting point, not a statement of facts.

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A starting point to what? A muddled debate as to what a word means rather than accepting a commonly held definition that most everyone understands in order that a sensible debate might continue?

Thatcher associated with and spoke highly of Suharto, I think Pinochet, and others of her time that were poor leaders and criminals.

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Does that make Thatcher a poor leader or a criminal? Keep in mind that she played the hand she was dealt, and played it extremely well.

I also wouldn't trust the anti Thatcher media of the day to give honest opinions on any world leaders. They were generally judged by a left wing perspective, which is why President Reagan was demonized while Soviet leaders such as Gorbachev largely got a pass.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:

No one's claiming she was a Hitler, but violent repression was certainly a large part of her modus operandum. This shows you what took place...

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Why does doggerel inspire leftists? Anyone have an explanation?

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

I just wanted to go on record here by saying I don't have a doggerel in this fight.

Infinite Chaos said:

I bid you adieu but I will leave you FW de Klerk's words on Margaret thatcher in return.

She will be remembered not only as one of Britain's greatest prime ministers but also as a leader whose policies and approach had a significant impact on politics throughout the world. Although she was always a steadfast critic of apartheid, she had a much better grasp of the complexities and geo-strategic realities of South Africa than many of her contemporaries.

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I'm sure you believe the opinion of the leader of the Apartheid state above that of the leader of the Conservative Party on Thatcher's behaviour towards South Africa.

David Cameron made another break with his party's past yesterday when he declared that Margaret Thatcher had been wrong to describe Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress as terrorists during the struggle against apartheid in the 1980s.

The Tory leader also took a swipe at her famous - or to some infamous - remark that there was "no such thing as society". He said there was such a thing as society, but it should not be confused with the state.

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She was undoubtedly the best friend Apartheid had amongst western leaders.

Andalublue said:

I'm sure you believe the opinion of the leader of the Apartheid state above that of the leader of the Conservative Party on Thatcher's behaviour towards South Africa.

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De Klerk being the leader who recognised that Apartheid had no future, that Nelson Mandela would have to be freed. Thatcher disliked Botha - Botha tried to get Mandela to refute the ANC right to violence.

Andalublue said:

She was undoubtedly the best friend Apartheid had amongst western leaders.

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Nobody comes out as a shining white knight from that period, the general public were the movers and shakers - getting companies to leave S Africa and to abandon industrial links there.

Andalublue said:

No one's claiming she was a Hitler -

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You're right there, Penderyn claimed she was far worse.

Andalublue said:

-- violent repression was certainly a large part of her modus operandum. This shows you what took place...

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Why don't you also show that Arthur Scargill decided to take on the government with his 1million strong "army?" Why don't you also show that the electorate was fed up of unions dictating economic and industrial policy to the rest of us?
Thatcher imposed 3 important bits of legislation on the unions - the right to secret vote (away from union intimidation) secondary or flying pickets were banned (preventing power plant workers going on strike to defend miners for example) and forcing union leaders to face regular re-election?

Why don't you show also that days lost to industrial action fell from 29 million in 1979 to less than half a million by 1990?

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Gardener said:

or Pol Pot.

Penderyn has actually indicated she is WORSE than either.

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There are a lot of sources to show what the reality of her régime looked like. This documentary is beautifully made and tells the full story of the miners' strike...

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:

No one's claiming she was a Hitler, but violent repression was certainly a large part of her modus operandum. This shows you what took place...

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Andalublue said:

There are a lot of sources to show what the reality of her régime looked like. This documentary is beautifully made and tells the full story of the miners' strike...

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You give us 100 minutes of propaganda Andy - here's 4 minutes of factual review by ITN News.



Not all miners wanted to strike - many wanted to work, that's the bit your videos gloss over.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:

No one's claiming she was a Hitler, but violent repression was certainly a large part of her modus operandum. This shows you what took place...

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Actually one person claimed she was worse than Hitler - in fact she was the worst person who ever lived.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Wiggen said:

Actually one person claimed she was worse than Hitler - in fact she was the worst person who ever lived.

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So I see we've ventured well into the ridiculous. So much for this thread.

Infinite Chaos said:

Why don't you also show that Arthur Scargill decided to take on the government with his 1million strong "army?"

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I'm glad you used the quotation marks. What kind of army uses no weapons? You didn't watch that YT doc about Orgreave, did you?

Thatcher imposed 3 important bits of legislation on the unions - the right to secret vote.

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I agreed with that. Funny how she wasn't very keen on secret votes for elections within the Tory party. She wasn't elected by 'one member, one vote', but still felt it appropriate to impose on the trades unions.

secondary or flying pickets were banned (preventing power plant workers going on strike to defend miners for example)

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Yup, giving the police draconian powers to prevent the free movement of citizens and the right to free, peaceful assembly.

and forcing union leaders to face regular re-election?

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Not true, that already happened, and in a significantly more democratic manner than did the Tory party.

Why don't you show also that days lost to industrial action fell from 29 million in 1979 to less than half a million by 1990?

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Why don't you mention that unemployment in 1979 was 1.3 million and in 1991 it was 2.3 million?

Andalublue said:

I'm sure you believe the opinion of the leader of the Apartheid state above that of the leader of the Conservative Party on Thatcher's behaviour towards South Africa. She was undoubtedly the best friend Apartheid had amongst western leaders.

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One of the reasons why Margaret Thatcher's views on South Africa were important is because she mattered, and she made Britain matter once again. It seems you are trying to turn Margaret Thatcher into a racist here but this is a common attack from leftists and is now, as a consequence, largely disregarded.

Of course, if you remember "necklacing", you'll know that the ANC was not all sweetness and light.

And as far as "her famous - or to some infamous - remark that there was "no such thing as society" is concerned it's a good idea to quote her in full, in case anyone be misled.

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand 'I have a problem, it is the Government’s job to cope with it!' or 'I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!' 'I am homeless, the Government must house me!' and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first… There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate."

There is nothing "infamous" in what she said.

Is she hated?

Let's just say the further north you travel, the more intensely does that cold white light seem to pierce from behind the eyes.

I'd have given a lot to see Thatcher stroll into a northern pub. Oh, to have been a fly on that wall. Especially back in the day. *sigh*

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Penderyn said:

The scumbags you name lived in scumbag times. She took an advanced country and turned it into a sort of mini-America without the good points. She was utterly evil. as you know. Stop posturing and be ashamed.

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Germany was a basket case when Hitler came to power, he turned it into one of the most powerful nations on earth then destroyed it. He was evil.
Thatcher came to power when Britain was a basket case, She turned it around (call her methods wrong and leading in the wrong direction if you want) Then she left power and Britain was not destroyed. She was not evil.
Stop your silly posturing and saying you don't hate anyone when clearly you hate Thatcher and spew hate and vileness.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Quag said:

Thatcher came to power when Britain was a basket case, She turned it around

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That's Lie #1 of the Thatcher revisionists. What statistical data are you using to make that claim? I'm using government's own stats: 1979 unemployment 1.3 million, 1991 unemployment 2.3 million.

While some remember her as a national saviour, others only see her ruthless demolition of flailing state-owned industries. As coal, steel and shipbuilding fell under her wrecking ball, whole communities were destroyed. Was it cruelty? Tim Bale, author of The Conservative Party: from Thatcher to Cameron, says it was conviction. She fervently believed the market would soon repair their loss. Creative destruction was capitalism's necessary agent, so equilibrium was bound to be restored. It never was. Large parts of society never recovered, while Germany and other countries managed the transition without such brutality. North sea oil was squandered when it should have seeded new industries. Instead, her Big Bang blew the roof off City profits and property booms filled the gap where productive industry should have sprouted. Her heirs have not learned that lesson, with no sign of their promised "rebalancing". No sign they learned from her that markets don't move in to fill the gaps when the state is rolled back – not then, not now.

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Polly Toynbee

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Medusa said:

shalll we kill them because they dont want to die ?

:roll:

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No, but only cowards stretch out their lives when they are old, have terminal diseases that require lots of attention and care from their families.

You don't agree - you are wrong.

It happened to both my parents - whom I love.

They put their family/friends through hell just to stretch out their lives a few months...selfish and cowardly.

And save your 'life is precious' comments...I heard it from my mother every week of my life.

And I heard those words in my head as everyone abandoned her because she turned into an incredibly bitter and angry woman as her health failed...everyone but me. I as a young man looked after her in her dying days. Only I (and a nurse) was with her at the end.

She was miserable, she made everyone else miserable (though I was too ignorant/naive and too busy taking care of her to feel anything) and it cost the family a TON of money (not just her money - everyone else's money. Possibly several hundred thousand dollars worth).

And for what?

Absolutely nothing.

And the same goes for Margaret Thatcher if she put her friends/family through the same thing while she slowly lost her mind to dementia.


My solution is simple - assisted suicide should be legal for any sane person AND the government should stop providing anything but emergency assistance to people after 80 (and no - murdering them is not an option as you mentioned).


I await your no doubt, emotion based, closed-minded rant about how morally wrong I am.

It will probably be filled with ignorance and naivety because the vast majority of people are so afraid of dying, so heck bent on living every second they can, no matter how miserable it makes their loved ones, that they don't dare hear that it is selfish - and it will be read and discarded.


Have a nice day.

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:

That's Lie #1 of the Thatcher revisionists. What statistical data are you using to make that claim? I'm using government's own stats: 1979 unemployment 1.3 million, 1991 unemployment 2.3 million.


Polly Toynbee

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My point was she is not comparable to Hitler I am not trying to argue she was heaven sent. But when some J*** A** claims they hate no one, then calls a democratically elected politician who leaves power without being forced out through use of arms, the most evil person that ever lived anywhere they are total BS liars. They do hate people and have no clue what Evil really is.
I could care less if you agree/disagree with here politics, She was a human being that has died and she was not evil! Only the truly evils should have their deaths celebrated.
You know like the J*** a**** that jump and scream for joy whenever someone they disagree with politically dies (that applies to all sides)

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:

That's Lie #1 of the Thatcher revisionists. What statistical data are you using to make that claim? I'm using government's own stats: 1979 unemployment 1.3 million, 1991 unemployment 2.3 million.

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In Communist countries there was 100% employment, but there was little production and what there was was third rate. That was the case in Britain when Margaret Thatcher took over, and she turned it around.

NoC_T said:

Is she hated?

Let's just say the further north you travel, the more intensely does that cold white light seem to pierce from behind the eyes.

I'd have given a lot to see Thatcher stroll into a northern pub. Oh, to have been a fly on that wall. Especially back in the day. *sigh*

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Are northern pubs where the great minds of Britain congregate?