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Thread: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

  1. #431
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The scars are too deep?

    Are we dealing with juveniles here? Adults tend to move on, rather than whining and complaining a generation later.
    LOL are you freaking serious? What planet do you live on?
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    No, actually they weren't very happy in the 1950's. They still had food rationing from the Second World War for part of it. It's hard to be deliriously happy when you still have food rationing.
    Not to mention the failing Empire. People tend to forget, that people even during Thatcher and even some today in the conservative party, think that the UK is as powerful and important as it was during Empire times and try to project this.

    It takes time for people in general and more often longer for the political elite, to understand that the glory days are over. It happens to every major power. It happened to the Soviets/Russians, it is happening to the US now, and will happen to the Chinese and so on. It is how things work.

    But there are always, mostly right wing but not exclusive, that reach out and try to rekindle old glories for political gain. Lets look at a few.

    Al Q, has in part been driven by the myth of Al Andalus and the glory days of the Islamic world. They use this myth as a political recruitment tool to pull in lesser educated peoples to their cause. Especially AL Q in Northern Africa have used this tactic.

    The UK and Trident. Just last week Cameron and the Tories justified spending billions on a nuclear weapon and pushed for an upgrade that could cost trillions.. based on the supposed threat from North Korea. By linking the two, Cameron tried to use the imperial days power and reach tactic and totally glossed over the fact for North Korea to reach the UK with a nuclear missile, it would have to send that missile over Russia or the US. But in Cameron's mind and that of his party, holding on to expensive nuclear weapons in a world where there are next to non threats, shows the same strength as the British Empire.. the glory days of the Conservative Party.

    Or look at Italy where Berloscloony and some of his allies have attempted to use everything from the Roman empire to the "good" days under Mussolini to rally the faithful and to project an Italy of the past, where Italy was strong and powerful.

    Or look at white racists and neo-nazies that use Nazi Germany as some sort of glory years to justify their hatred and political views.

    Or many Eastern European countries longing for the so called good old days of communist rule.

    I could go on with examples in the middle east and elsewhere, but that will get this thread moved to the gulag of the middle east forum

    Point is, some parties and politicians and people tend to view the past in a very narrow viewpoint and tend to only remember the good things, but gloss over the bad.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Now this is complete ignorance. Protestants have their own little country cause called Northern Ireland because their rights and "way of life" were protected by the British Government. Instead of turning over the WHOLE island to the Irish people.. partition was done and led to another 80 years of favoritism towards Protestants. Reality is they have a right to move back to Scotland as well. They also have a right to finally accept they are Irish after spending 400 years in Ireland and being on their 8th, 9th and 10th generation of being born in Ireland. But nah.. they are "special" people.
    its not ignorance I just don't agree with you . Both my uncles served in N.Ireland during the 70's and 80's and sweat and blood of British soldiers has secured Northern Ireland for generations to come, what's done is done.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The scars are too deep?

    Are we dealing with juveniles here? Adults tend to move on, rather than whining and complaining a generation later.
    or people who lost their livelihood and their communities.....
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    its not ignorance I just don't agree with you . Both my uncles served in N.Ireland during the 70's and 80's and sweat and blood of British soldiers has secured Northern Ireland for generations to come, what's done is done.
    No, it's ignorance, British ignorance. Your uncles were but cannon fodder in a world in which Northern Ireland will and never can be at peace. The Troubles were nothing but a 30 year period of almost 900 years of Irish resistance to British occupation. In the future Demographics suck for Protestants. They only equate to 48% of the population today, a drop of 5% since 2001. Catholics now equate to 45% of the population gaining 1% since 2001. No longer does the Union Jack fly over Belfast city hall daily. And it's now Protestants rioting, protesting and committing violence in a half-assed attempt to stay relevant in the changing world. Noami Long took Peter Robinson's seat in East Belfast which had been a Unionist strong hold for over 100 years.
    Last edited by austrianecon; 04-10-13 at 08:55 AM.
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Now this is complete ignorance. Protestants have their own little country cause called Northern Ireland because their rights and "way of life" were protected by the British Government. Instead of turning over the WHOLE island to the Irish people.. partition was done and led to another 80 years of favoritism towards Protestants. Reality is they have a right to move back to Scotland as well. They also have a right to finally accept they are Irish after spending 400 years in Ireland and being on their 8th, 9th and 10th generation of being born in Ireland. But nah.. they are "special" people.
    No, like the Falklanders, Northern Irish Protestants have a right to decide on their constitutional future. They have demonstrated a desire to remain British.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    I try to stay classy.
    You failed. Calling for someone to "burn in hell" is not classy.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    And Anglo-Irish Agreement leading to peace is utter bs.
    I didn't claim that an agreement made in 1985 led directly to another signed 13 years later. Paved the way is still correct - it showed that the British Government would consider ways to make peace including committing "to promoting legislation for a united Ireland if a majority is in favour."

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    -- The Sunningdale Agreement of 1973 was the stepping stone. Council of Ireland was proposed in that Agreement and before that, it was the Government of Ireland Act of 1920. Sunningdale Agreement collapsed because of pro-Unionist who backed it withdrew support because of Article 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution wasn't up for discussion. Guess what the difference between Sunningdale Agreement and Good Friday Agreement is? Ireland revised it's Constitution giving up all claim to Northern Ireland.

    You can thank John Hume for Sunningdale and Anglo-Irish Agreements and for his early work in the Good Friday Agreement.

    Btw.. the position of the British Government during the Anglo-Irish Agreement was to ignore Republicans both in Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The Downing Street Declaration had more impact. It wasn't until President Clinton threw his weight behind "peace" did anything change. It was the US that gave Visas to IRA leadership (Gerry Adams, Martin McGuiness) to come visit the White House to have talks which made the UK look like eejits for banning people they were "talking" with from even coming to London to talk about peace. It was President Clinton who sent George Mitchell to head the decommission process, visited Northern Ireland, he made the calls to ease the tension after the Dockland bombings and encourage all sides to agree to the Good Friday Agreement.
    Yawn, I'm aware of the history - having served there as a British soldier in the 80's. You also leave out that for the Good Friday agreement - the British Government also repealed the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    England would lose Forties, Shetland, Moray and Northern Scotland Coast so in reality that's like 80% plus of the Northern Sea Oil that England has rights to.
    And you're aware Shetland Islanders might claim their 95% from Scotland if they were to secede?

    Scotland’s oil-rich Northern Isles are threatening to destroy Alex Salmond’s economic case for independence by warning they might not accept rule from Edinburgh.

    The Orkney and Shetland islands could remain part of the UK if the rest of Scotland votes to separate, according to a report submitted by their MSPs to the Government. Link.

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    im not so convinced she destroyed british manufacturing or british self reliance as somuch the original labour party destroyed it.


    ive known quite a few brits,most bon and raised in england then moved to the us in the 70's.most flat out refuse to buy anything british made because they believe they are utter piles of crap.

    most british cars ive seen in the seventies had the quality of something crafted by a drunk and the technology of amodelt.

    thatcher didnt kill british manufacturing,the labour party id.before thatcher came in,the british govt kept subsidizing companies that were failing because they were producing extremely poor quality products while paying top dollars to their employyees.by the late seventies englands economy became stagnant,and it was evident that if the labour party had continues,the british economy would have fully collapsed.

    the lack of competition came as the country protected failing companies,allowing them to fail even further while being protected,until the point they were socialized,meaning they never became efficient,never were able to handle free trade,and were only good if all other competition was eliminated and they were the only companies available.
    Well said - and nicely brings us back to Thatcher's legacy and whether she is to blame for the socialist / communist dreams and aspirations of some during the 1970's.

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    No, it's ignorance, British ignorance. Your uncles were but cannon fodder in a world in which Northern Ireland will and never can be at peace. The Troubles were nothing but a 30 year period of almost 900 years of Irish resistance to British occupation. In the future Demographics suck for Protestants. They only equate to 48% of the population today, a drop of 5% since 2001. Catholics now equate to 45% of the population gaining 1% since 2001. No longer does the Union Jack fly over Belfast city hall daily. And it's now Protestants rioting, protesting and committing violence in a half-assed attempt to stay relevant in the changing world. Noami Long took Peter Robinson's seat in East Belfast which had been a Unionist strong hold for over 100 years.
    its ignorance to ignore the wishes of the majority and centuries of established settlements.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    No, like the Falklanders, Northern Irish Protestants have a right to decide on their constitutional future. They have demonstrated a desire to remain British.
    I never said they shouldn't. But they hijacked 4 counties of which are actually Nationalist. You know Tyrone, Armagh, Fermanagh and Londonderry.. areas which British soldiers had a hell of a time "beating" down the population. But I will get to this later for a more indepth discussion on how you are wrong.. as there was no Constitutional involved and how a lonely it must be to know the British Government was willing to sell out those very Northern Irish during WW2.



    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    You failed. Calling for someone to "burn in hell" is not classy.
    It is when I could have used much harsher terms.






    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    And you're aware Shetland Islanders might claim their 95% from Scotland if they were to secede?
    They won't claim independence. They want more bang for their buck and they'll go to the side that offers them the most.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    I never said they shouldn't. But they hijacked 4 counties of which are actually Nationalist. You know Tyrone, Armagh, Fermanagh and Londonderry.. areas which British soldiers had a hell of a time "beating" down the population. But I will get to this later for a more indepth discussion on how you are wrong.. as there was no Constitutional involved and how a lonely it must be to know the British Government was willing to sell out those very Northern Irish during WW2.
    First this is a thread about Margaret Thatcher, second of course I'm wrong if I mentioned there was a Constitution - what I mentioned was a "constitutional right to choose their own future."

    Third, if you can stick to Thatcher in a thread about Thatcher, that would be great.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    -- It is when I could have used much harsher terms.
    Yawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    -- They won't claim independence. They want more bang for their buck and they'll go to the side that offers them the most.
    I have no problem with that, the Shetlanders have little allegiance to Scotland but you were the one claimed England would lose "Forties, Shetland, Moray and Northern Scotland Coast"

    To try and bring some relevance back to this, Conservative "England" lost Scotland after Thatcher a while ago. If Scotland (minus the oil bearing Islands that have no allegiance to Edinburgh) go their own way - that is their right in their referendum.

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