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Thread: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I've read about Orgreave, including how the charges were dropped. I had no desire to spend 52 minutes of my life watching something there are short precis about.
    Then you concede that there was no NUM 'army' and that you used the term for rhetorical purposes.



    Thatcher went head to head against Ted Heath and had a lot of back-bench support while the Tory Grandees supported Heath. He stood down but she still had to go for a second ballot where she received the support of 149 Tory MPs. Are you talking about the MPs not supporting her or the conservative party membership? Personally I believe the MPs (of all parties) know among themselves who commands the highest respect and leadership qualities. I certainly think the membership should have some form of say but the perfect example of how this can provide lame duck leaders is the recent contest between Ed and David Miliband. Ed was foisted onto the Labour party by the unions while the MPs went for David. (if I recall correctly)
    Don't you remember her mantra about 'one member, one vote' in relation to union elections? How come that ethos only applied to trades unions and not to political parties?



    Many of those jobs came from industries that the taxpayer subsidised. Coal mines that made no money or profit. Where is the economic sense in taking taxpayer money to put people into jobs producing something we couldn't export and which faced cheaper / more efficient / better quality imports?
    Except that those cheaper sources ran out. Britain's North Sea Oil has gone, just 40 years after coming on line. There are still millions of tons of coal that would now be uneconomic to extract, but wouldn't be had we kept the mines open. The difference was in the non-unionised nature of the North Sea oil industry, and the unionised coal mines i.e. the profits for the Tory-supporting oil companies trumped the sustainability of coal and the prosperity of the mining communities. As I've said before, Thatcher was a great, great class warrior. She knew whose side she was on. Nothing to do with the economic prosperity of the nation as a whole.

    Yes many towns and communities lost their central industry but this comes down to what kind of society we want - we still have a legacy of people who sit in their local communities and demand that life treat them well or take care of them while hardworking Polish immigrants come and do the work local Brits refuse to do. Tebbit was hated for his "get on your bike and look for work" statements but at heart - he was right. If you looked for work, you could find it - even in the worst of the 80's unemployment era.
    Nonsense. Tebbit didn't invent the idea of getting on your bike. Working class people had been doing that for centuries - as far back as the Black Death in fact. Tebbit was merely expressing the Tories' disdain and domination of the working class. "You do what we, the Bosses, tell you. Or else.



    It reached 3.2 million under Thatcher at one point but that doesn't change that many of the lost jobs were unsustainable anyway.
    Clearly, as we've never returned to a situation even approaching full employment, and we never will while neo-liberal economics is the model. It would be fatal for the neo-lib model to even conceive of full employment. Capitalism requires a pool of under-class workers that can be assimilated or discarded into or out of the work-force according to whichever cycle of boom and bust it is in at the particular time. It has nothing to do with trades unionism, and everything to do with an economic model that builds in its social inequality. It won't last forever, but it does require its prophets and its apparatchiks. Thatcher is notable merely for being both.
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Then you concede that there was no NUM 'army' and that you used the term for rhetorical purposes.
    I'm not speaking of a classical army however the striking miners and flying pickets which were de rigeur for union tactics were certainly a kind of civilian army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    -- Don't you remember her mantra about 'one member, one vote' in relation to union elections? How come that ethos only applied to trades unions and not to political parties?
    Perhaps you have a link then I can comment further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    --*Except that those cheaper sources ran out. Britain's North Sea Oil has gone, just 40 years after coming on line. There are still millions of tons of coal that would now be uneconomic to extract, but wouldn't be had we kept the mines open. The difference was in the non-unionised nature of the North Sea oil industry, and the unionised coal mines i.e. the profits for the Tory-supporting oil companies trumped the sustainability of coal and the prosperity of the mining communities. As I've said before, Thatcher was a great, great class warrior. She knew whose side she was on. Nothing to do with the economic prosperity of the nation as a whole.
    I'm talking about the great mythical British Industry she is supposed to have destroyed. British car manufacture was a joke, our steel, coal and ship building was uncompetitive. All depended on taxpayer handouts to continue and we didn't get value for money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    -- Nonsense. Tebbit didn't invent the idea of getting on your bike. Working class people had been doing that for centuries - as far back as the Black Death in fact. Tebbit was merely expressing the Tories' disdain and domination of the working class. "You do what we, the Bosses, tell you. Or else.
    I never claimed he did but I did say he was vilified for saying it and he still is now - strange that if people have been getting up to find work for centuries there were such scalded feathers when one Tory said it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    --*Clearly, as we've never returned to a situation even approaching full employment, and we never will while neo-liberal economics is the model. It would be fatal for the neo-lib model to even conceive of full employment. Capitalism requires a pool of under-class workers that can be assimilated or discarded into or out of the work-force according to whichever cycle of boom and bust it is in at the particular time. It has nothing to do with trades unionism, and everything to do with an economic model that builds in its social inequality. It won't last forever, but it does require its prophets and its apparatchiks. Thatcher is notable merely for being both.
    Find any country that could afford the myth of full employment and jobs for life - you're right it is part of a capitalist system but then only because we don't march the slackers to gulag as they would in a communist system. As Grant pointed out, communist systems often have near 100% employment but we're not talking about systems that can produce world beating products are we?

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Fare thee well Iron Maiden. May the Lord bless you and keep you, may he shine his face upon thee and give thee peace.
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    That Morrissey is smarter and more insightful than that dullard Thatcher? Yeah, there is an irony in that.
    Right, because he is smart enough to be a chemist and a lawyer, right?
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Thatcher's hatred of working people still give conservatives erections after all these years.
    She LOVED working people. She HATED the lazy who lived off of bloated, loss-making enterprises.
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Tell that to the Catholics in Northern Ireland.
    The majority in Northern Ireland want to remain British. As a Catholic I sympathize with the Catholics there, but not the Catholic terrorists. However, it is the democratically expressed will of the people of Northern Ireland to remain British. I respect that.
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Which is why it's funny to watch you try so hard.

    Meanwhile, I think Thatcher and Reagan were soul mates because they both loved invading ineffectual countries and declaring victory over sheep and nuns.
    Are you talking about the Falklands, which was illegally invaded by Argentina, and Grenada in which an illegal coup had taken over the government??? Reagan was requested by neighboring states in the OECS to help out.
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    Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Curious that both she and her soulmate Reagan suffered from dementia. Almost prophetic.
    And this is almost pathetic.

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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Very classy. You should take a leaf from Martin McGuiness' thoughts.

    She regretted signing the Anglo Irish agreement but as another poster commented earlier - that paved the way later for the peace that now reigns.
    I try to stay classy. And Anglo-Irish Agreement leading to peace is utter bs. The Sunningdale Agreement of 1973 was the stepping stone. Council of Ireland was proposed in that Agreement and before that, it was the Government of Ireland Act of 1920. Sunningdale Agreement collapsed because of pro-Unionist who backed it withdrew support because of Article 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution wasn't up for discussion. Guess what the difference between Sunningdale Agreement and Good Friday Agreement is? Ireland revised it's Constitution giving up all claim to Northern Ireland.

    You can thank John Hume for Sunningdale and Anglo-Irish Agreements and for his early work in the Good Friday Agreement.

    Btw.. the position of the British Government during the Anglo-Irish Agreement was to ignore Republicans both in Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The Downing Street Declaration had more impact. It wasn't until President Clinton threw his weight behind "peace" did anything change. It was the US that gave Visas to IRA leadership (Gerry Adams, Martin McGuiness) to come visit the White House to have talks which made the UK look like eejits for banning people they were "talking" with from even coming to London to talk about peace. It was President Clinton who sent George Mitchell to head the decommission process, visited Northern Ireland, he made the calls to ease the tension after the Dockland bombings and encourage all sides to agree to the Good Friday Agreement.
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    Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The majority in Northern Ireland want to remain British. As a Catholic I sympathize with the Catholics there, but not the Catholic terrorists. However, it is the democratically expressed will of the people of Northern Ireland to remain British. I respect that.
    Of course.. but it's for economic reasons and for fear what would happen if there was a United Ireland. Unionist would go ape **** and since they are the largest population.. you have to sway them. No way you are gonna sway the Never! Never! Never! crowd until the likes of Scotland leaves the Union.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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