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Thread: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    First of all, this is ****ing stupid because the goddamned gametes are alive before fertilization occurs. I know Kansas doesn't have a reputation for intellectual prowess, but this is basic stuff anybody with a GED should know.

    Second, this is an obvious attempt to inch towards violating the 14 amendment. Stating life begins at fertilization serves no legitimate purpose.

    Third, as Deuce noted, this turns miscarriage (which naturally occurs in like 75% of all fertilizations) into manslaughter. Birth control pills prevent implantation, not fertilization, so they would have to be outlawed. In vitro fertilization and IUDs too. This poorly thought out piece of **** would require the government to shove cameras in every sexually active woman's vagina to bust them for a crime when their bodies naturally dissolve unviable zygotes.

    In summary, Kansas is ****ing stupid and an embarrassment to rest of the country.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    A <SNIP> From an interesting article which compares the number of zygotes lost with birth control V without Birth control;


    With Birth Control:

    ■Sample size: 100 fertile women
    ■0.15 dead zygotes per month
    2 dead zygotes by the end of the year


    Without Birth Control:

    ■Sample size: 100 fertile women
    ■Each month 16% become pregnant and 16% have dead zygotes
    85 dead zygotes by the end of the year


    Just in case starting the sample with 100 women who are not pregnant somehow skewed the numbers, let’s simply consider two individual women over their lifetimes. Let’s say that each has 25 fertile years. One is on the pill the entire time. If we add up her 2% chance per year of having a zygote flushed out, we end up with a 50% chance over her lifetime.

    The other woman does not use birth control. For every menstrual cycle, there is a 16% chance that she will have a zygote flushed out. This means that out of six periods, on average she will have one zygote flushed out – one fertilized egg that will fail to implant in her uterus.
    While without birth control she will likely spend much of her time pregnant, she will still have periods in between pregnancies.

    And since it’s just as likely that a zygote will fail to implant in between two pregnancies as it is that it will successfully implant, thus starting another pregnancy, she will probably end up with just as many dead zygotes as she ends up with pregnancies.

    Thus a woman on the pill for her entire fertile period has a one in two chance of her body “killing” a zygote by flushing it out, but the body of a woman not on birth control will flush out and thus “kill” numerous zygotes over the course of her life. ...

    The actual numbers indicate that a woman on the pill for her entire life flushes out something like 95% fewer zygotes than a woman not using birth control.
    Zygotes Lost With Birth Control v. Without Birth Control
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    Second, this is an obvious attempt to inch towards violating the 14 amendment. Stating life begins at fertilization serves no legitimate purpose.
    Yes, it does. It's stating the biological fact that a new human life is created at the moment of conception. That is a fact.

    The argument is whether this new human life is a "person" and/or deserves "personhood."

    There is always legitimate purpose in stating facts.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Yes, it does. It's stating the biological fact that a new human life is created at the moment of conception. That is a fact.

    The argument is whether this new human life is a "person" and/or deserves "personhood."

    There is always legitimate purpose in stating facts.
    Life exists before conception and stating that it begins at conception is inaccurate. Lacking accuracy, this "fact" is not relevant to the "when-personhood" debate. Being both inaccurate and irrelevant, the only purpose it serves it to appeal to emotion and muddy the debate. Casting it in legislature is an attempt to elevate this "fact," to give it unearned legitimacy without subjecting it to scrutiny.
    Last edited by ChunkySalsa; 04-07-13 at 12:21 PM.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    Life exists before conception and stating that it begins at conception is inaccurate. Lacking accuracy, this "fact" is not relevant to the "when-personhood" debate. Being both inaccurate and irrelevant, the only purpose it serves it to appeal to emotion and muddy the debate. Casting it in legislature is an attempt to elevate this "fact," to give it undeserved legitimacy, without subjecting it to the scrutiny it deserves.
    You may continue to delude yourself, but I did state a biological fact. The embryologists whose textbooks are used at the top-ten med schools do state this.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    You may continue to delude yourself, but I did state a biological fact. The embryologists whose textbooks are used at the top-ten med schools do state this.
    Your biological fact is inane and irrelevant to the discussion about when to legally ascribe personhood to a developing fetus. This tactic, appealing to emotion, has just as much validity as an ad hominen trying to discredit Republicans by sneaking "Boehner has a 2 inch penis" into the law.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    First of all, this is ****ing stupid because the goddamned gametes are alive before fertilization occurs. I know Kansas doesn't have a reputation for intellectual prowess, but this is basic stuff anybody with a GED should know.
    Gametes are not "alive", as they have no way to reproduce themselves.

    I guess you should get a refund for your GED.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    Your biological fact is inane and irrelevant to the discussion about when to legally ascribe personhood to a developing fetus. This tactic, appealing to emotion, has just as much validity as an ad hominen trying to discredit Republicans by sneaking "Boehner has a 2 inch penis" into the law.
    The fact that the fetus is human and alive from the moment of conception is not inane nor irrelevant to this discussion. You claimed that this isn't so when it is a biological fact. And I did specifically state that the issue is personhood. Read more carefully please.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    First of all, this is ****ing stupid because the goddamned gametes are alive before fertilization occurs. I know Kansas doesn't have a reputation for intellectual prowess, but this is basic stuff anybody with a GED should know.

    Second, this is an obvious attempt to inch towards violating the 14 amendment. Stating life begins at fertilization serves no legitimate purpose.

    Third, as Deuce noted, this turns miscarriage (which naturally occurs in like 75% of all fertilizations) into manslaughter. Birth control pills prevent implantation, not fertilization, so they would have to be outlawed. In vitro fertilization and IUDs too. This poorly thought out piece of **** would require the government to shove cameras in every sexually active woman's vagina to bust them for a crime when their bodies naturally dissolve unviable zygotes.

    In summary, Kansas is ****ing stupid and an embarrassment to rest of the country.


    Fist, it really isn't stupid at all. It does however require a desire for Truth (honesty) to come to a reasonable rational conclusion.
    Prior to fertilization you have two individual cells that will not become a human being until they come together. Once they do come together, short of a miscarriage or abortion, you have a genetically unique human being forming. A human in process you might say.
    When you have a unique human being in process, when is it ok to kill it? I would argue never. We attempt to become gods if we decide to kill a human being.

    Second, inching towards the truth is never a bad idea. Stating life begins at fertilization does not serve your agenda, but it does serve Truth. Not a bad thing at all.

    Third, miscarriage would not be considered manslaughter unless the mother were to induce it through bad choices. Also, your statistic for miscarriage appears to be hyper-inflated for some reason:
    "Miscarriage is the most common type of pregnancy loss, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). Studies reveal that anywhere from 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage."
    Miscarriage - American Pregnancy Association

    Lastly, the ad-hominem attack. The standard recourse for those who do not believe in Truth or honesty. A tactic usually employed by the Progressive, and too often the liberal.

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    Re: Kansas set to enact life-starts-"at fertilization" abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    ...

    Also, your statistic for miscarriage appears to be hyper-inflated for some reason:
    "Miscarriage is the most common type of pregnancy loss, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). Studies reveal that anywhere from 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage."
    Miscarriage - American Pregnancy Association

    ...
    You are correct that up to 25 Percent of known pregnancies end in misscarrige. But Chunky Salsa was also correct when he said that
    about 75 pregnancies naturally end in miscarriage.
    About two thirds of fertilized eggs ( zygotes) pass out of the body without implanting or self abort the first week after implanting ...before the woman even knows she is pregnant.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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