Judge strikes age restrictions for "morning after" pill

roguenuke said:

Which has what to do with this issue? Nothing is lost by forcing teens to have an adult, preferably a parent, relative, and/or legal guardian/medical professional get them Plan B rather than giving them unlimited access. Nothing that can be proven since you can't prove that Plan B reduces unwanted pregnancies overall.

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Actually, yes time is lost and in the case of plan B that is important. Also there is a pretty decent potential many parents won't sign off on it. Yes, Plan B does reduce unwanted pregnancies if it is used. I am not sure where you got that absurd logic, but it will actually prevent pregnancies and has been proven to do so. Since the people who use it don't want to become pregnant then it will prevent unwanted pregnancies. Spreading complete BS is not helping.

Look, if you want to do something like they do for pseudoephedrine products and create a national database and register purchasers to intervene if they are purchasing too much plan B then I could possibly see that. Still, that would only apply to those people who cross a threshold of purchases and there should be no prevention of a person getting it for a few random emergencies. It would be fairly ineffective and costly, but if it makes you feel better then fight for that.

roguenuke said:

Which has what to do with this issue? Nothing is lost by forcing teens to have an adult, preferably a parent, relative, and/or legal guardian/medical professional get them Plan B rather than giving them unlimited access. Nothing that can be proven since you can't prove that Plan B reduces unwanted pregnancies overall.

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I disagree.

If a young child needs Plan B, then it's because she's had unprotected sex. This means that the parent, relative or guardian has not, for whatever reason, done a good job of educating their child. Suggesting that the person or people who have failed at something are the people who are best equipped to succeed at it seems to be a bit counter-intuitive, to say the least

And while some teens may get Plan B for themselves in order to avoid being grounded, there are teens who are risk of far more serious consequences at the hands of parents who are abusive, or parents who are pro-life.

tererun said:

If it delays ovulation it would probably have the same effect as taking it afterwards. Of course, it would seem that you could get 2 months of BC or hundreds of condoms for the cost of one pill. Still, it is a bit to late for regular BC that weekend, but if your plans are to go out and slut it up with people you don't know for a weekend hundreds of condoms is a far better solution.

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It's not indicated for that and should not be used as primary birth control or used before planned unprotected sex. Plan B is emergency contraception used in the event that primary contraception is suspected of failing or contraception was never used. Even if it might work the day before it is not indicated for that nor should it be used for that reason.

With all the religious idiocy and piss poor information around this pill i don't think a parent forcing their child through at least 9 months of pregnancy while they are in school because of stupid moral beliefs is a decision they should have final authority on. If the potential parent doesn't want to have a kid and knows they are way to young or incapable of handling it i do not care for anyone getting in their way of deciding to use emergency contraception. Since certain religious types would refuse to give it to the kids i don't see them as being interested in the wellbeing of the person seeking it. If adults were reasonable, well educated, and respectful people i would agree. Since they are not, i would rather the kid who has to deal with their own future make the choice for their future.

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You may see someone else's faith or views as "religious idiocy" but no matter how idiotic you think their views are you are still not the parent and it's not your call to make nor should it be your call to make. Just because some parents may have reasoning you think is idiotic doesn't mean they shouldn't have a say in their child's contraceptive healthcare or have the child using those medications without parental consent/being informed.

Regardless, I think the general misinformation and lack of knowledge by the general population regarding hormonal contraception and emergency contraception far outweighs any kind of reasoning behind making it purely OTC because some parents have have "religious idiocy." The fact is is that most people, religious or not, are not educated on how the pill works and it shouldn't be something that's left up for someone to Google and find medical info on the web for.

roguenuke said:

No, they aren't adults just because they start having sex. They are still teenagers, emotionally, physically, mentally, even legally.

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The part of sex which requires a capable adult is the pregnancy and raising the child. You do not need to be an adult to get pleasure from sexual stimulation.

tererun said:

Actually, yes time is lost and in the case of plan B that is important. Also there is a pretty decent potential many parents won't sign off on it. Yes, Plan B does reduce unwanted pregnancies if it is used. I am not sure where you got that absurd logic, but it will actually prevent pregnancies and has been proven to do so. Since the people who use it don't want to become pregnant then it will prevent unwanted pregnancies. Spreading complete BS is not helping.

Look, if you want to do something like they do for pseudoephedrine products and create a national database and register purchasers to intervene if they are purchasing too much plan B then I could possibly see that. Still, that would only apply to those people who cross a threshold of purchases and there should be no prevention of a person getting it for a few random emergencies. It would be fairly ineffective and costly, but if it makes you feel better then fight for that.

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How much time? Most teens are going to have to go to a parent anyway to get money for it. Even if they have their own money, what is an extra stop at mom's/dad's to get them to take them to the pharmacy? Not that much time lost. It isn't even like I am suggesting a prescription, just parental/adult consent.

It prevents individual pregnancies, not overall unwanted pregnancy numbers. Because there are women like my sister who try to use Plan B as primary BC then end up not being able to afford it that one time that gets them pregnant, instead of relying on much more reliable birth control methods, such as contraceptives, depo, or condoms.

tererun said:

The part of sex which requires a capable adult is the pregnancy and raising the child. You do not need to be an adult to get pleasure from sexual stimulation.

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No, but just having sex does not make you an adult when you are a teenager. You are still a teenager, making teenaged decisions after the sex, including whether to rely on Plan B or to actually consider being put on birth control that is more effective.

sangha said:

I disagree.

If a young child needs Plan B, then it's because she's had unprotected sex. This means that the parent, relative or guardian has not, for whatever reason, done a good job of educating their child. Suggesting that the person or people who have failed at something are the people who are best equipped to succeed at it seems to be a bit counter-intuitive, to say the least

And while some teens may get Plan B for themselves in order to avoid being grounded, there are teens who are risk of far more serious consequences at the hands of parents who are abusive, or parents who are pro-life.

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One misstep on a parent's part, that may not even be the parent's fault, is not a reason to keep them out of this knowledge, to give them the chance to talk the teen into using more effective, better methods of birth control.

And there are few teens, particularly ones that could afford Plan B, who would face "worse consequences" because of parental consent requirements. Plus, that can be alleviated by allowing a healthcare professional/social worker of some type to approve Plan B in those circumstance. I would rather the teen get help from such a situation than continue to sweep it under the rug because we want to fulfill some social agenda of giving teens what some feel is more sexual freedom.

roguenuke said:

One misstep on a parent's part, that may not even be the parent's fault, is not a reason to keep them out of this knowledge, to give them the chance to talk the teen into using more effective, better methods of birth control.

And there are few teens, particularly ones that could afford Plan B, who would face "worse consequences" because of parental consent requirements. Plus, that can be alleviated by allowing a healthcare professional/social worker of some type to approve Plan B in those circumstance. I would rather the teen get help from such a situation than continue to sweep it under the rug because we want to fulfill some social agenda of giving teens what some feel is more sexual freedom.

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Because denying them sexual freedom worked so well.............right..............................

Bonzai said:

Because denying them sexual freedom worked so well.............right..............................

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I'm not saying to deny them sexual freedom, but there really isn't a reason to not restrict it, not when we are talking about teenagers, that few want to end up pregnant.

This effort won't significantly reduce teen pregnancies, not from what we have seen so far with Plan B. It may not even reduce them at all. It is supposed to be an emergency contraceptive, but teens in good amounts, will be more likely to use as primary birth control if they are able in any way possible. This is a bad idea.

roguenuke said:

One misstep on a parent's part, that may not even be the parent's fault, is not a reason to keep them out of this knowledge, to give them the chance to talk the teen into using more effective, better methods of birth control.

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Whatever the did or did not do, it didn't take.

And there are few teens, particularly ones that could afford Plan B, who would face "worse consequences" because of parental consent requirements. Plus, that can be alleviated by allowing a healthcare professional/social worker of some type to approve Plan B in those circumstance. I would rather the teen get help from such a situation than continue to sweep it under the rug because we want to fulfill some social agenda of giving teens what some feel is more sexual freedom.

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I think there are more than you believe there to be. And getting other people involved seems like a time waster at a point where time is of the essence.

And the issue isn't about sexual freedom for teens. That's a red herring. By the time a teen goes to buy it, she's already having sex. Allowing her to purchase this is not approving or even condoning what she's done, just as allowing someone to purchase cough medicine is not approval for going out in the rain without an umbrella.

digsbe said:

It's not indicated for that and should not be used as primary birth control or used before planned unprotected sex.

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That is probably why it is referred to as plan B. You know since it is not the primary plan for birth control. It is also referred to as emergency contraception, and there are numerous warnings all around that say it is not for primary BC purposes. Just because some people ignore that does not mean it is ignored by everyone.

digsbe said:

Plan B is emergency contraception used in the event that primary contraception is suspected of failing or contraception was never used. Even if it might work the day before it is not indicated for that nor should it be used to prevent it.

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No, but it has the potential of working after someone does something completely human and makes a mistake. Expecting people to be perfect is a rather high expectation that is not going to ever happen. So yes i would rather have an alternative available than not.

digsbe said:

You may see someone else's faith or views as "religious idiocy" but no matter how idiotic you think their views are you are still not the parent and it's not your call to make nor should it be your call to make. Just because some parents may have reasoning you think is idiotic doesn't mean they shouldn't have a say in their child's contraceptive healthcare or have the child using those medications without parental consent/being informed.

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This desire to have parents there is not about healthcare. it is because parents want the ability to say no because of their religious values. Sorry, but the religious people of the US have made themselves way to obvious for me to pretend they are not the primary objection to this. Since the kid would have to live with being a parent I think they should have the final say in the matter. They will have to be pregnant, and they may have to raise their own child. They should be allowed to say no to that. having them be punished by going through a pregnancy and having a child is not sane or rational and the parents should not be in the way of the decision to use plan B. Like I was saying above if you wanted to make some sort of registry to prevent abuse of the drug and have some sort of educational intervention or restriction of toxic levels of the drug i could see that. But i do not see any reason to allow a parent to refuse their child Plan b simply because of their religious BS. Especially considering the product doesn't even cause abortion as many religious people wrongly believe.

digsbe said:

Regardless, I think the general misinformation and lack of knowledge by the general population regarding hormonal contraception and emergency contraception far outweighs any kind of reasoning behind making it purely OTC because some parents have have "religious idiocy." The fact is is that most people, religious or not, are not educated on how the pill works and it shouldn't be something that's left up for someone to Google and find medical info on the web for.

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When the zealots start quieting themselves down so they are not so obviously out there and all over the place i will perhaps agree with you, but the reality is they are out there, and pregnancy is not a punishment by god for having sex. Besides, i actually trust the kids to be better educated and use resources like the internet to find out real information about these things than their religious zealot parents are. The religious people tend to ignore science because it is inconvenient, and as we are finding their children are learning more and more despite their parents ignorance.

i also should mention that anon web lookups are far easier and less stressful than talking to your parent about having sex. It is far more likely a child would look stuff up on the internet considering it won't punish you, it doesn't judge you, and that is why we need proper information to be available to them.

roguenuke said:

No, but just having sex does not make you an adult when you are a teenager. You are still a teenager, making teenaged decisions after the sex, including whether to rely on Plan B or to actually consider being put on birth control that is more effective.

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Yeah, by the time you need plan B it is way to late for regular BC pills, or protection. they have already had sex at that point so you cannot put the genie back into the bottle. It is time to let them have the Plan B and if you want to offer suggestions they seek out regular BC and try to sell them some condoms for the next time i am not opposed. I actually think that would be a much better thing to suggest at the pharmacy than asking them if they want one of the chain's discount cards.

sangha said:

Whatever the did or did not do, it didn't take.

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So that automatically nulls their ability to correct the situation, make it better? I don't think so. No one is perfect, including good parents.

sangha said:

I think there are more than you believe there to be. And getting other people involved seems like a time waster at a point where time is of the essence.

And the issue isn't about sexual freedom for teens. That's a red herring. By the time a teen goes to buy it, she's already having sex. Allowing her to purchase this is not approving or even condoning what she's done, just as allowing someone to purchase cough medicine is not approval for going out in the rain without an umbrella.

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And we don't allow teens to purchase a lot of items that can be harmful to them so that the decision is left up to someone more responsible. As it should be. And for this. Time is not so critical that she would not have time to get Plan B from an adult, preferably her parents. Most girls won't be buying Plan B that fast anyway. Plus, many think that taking it within 3 days is just as effective as the day after. Wrong info abounds on this issue, info that needs to be corrected for teens by adults, not just left to be wrong.

tererun said:

Yeah, by the time you need plan B it is way to late for regular BC pills, or protection. they have already had sex at that point so you cannot put the genie back into the bottle. It is time to let them have the Plan B and if you want to offer suggestions they seek out regular BC and try to sell them some condoms for the next time i am not opposed. I actually think that would be a much better thing to suggest at the pharmacy than asking them if they want one of the chain's discount cards.

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But it isn't too late to get that one dose of Plan B and get them to a doctor to be put on birth control, a more effective birth control method. Teenagers are notoriously reactive. We as adults should not be encouraging that, which is what Plan B does since it is a reactive method of birth control, not a proactive one.

roguenuke said:

I'm not saying to deny them sexual freedom, but there really isn't a reason to not restrict it, not when we are talking about teenagers, that few want to end up pregnant.

This effort won't significantly reduce teen pregnancies, not from what we have seen so far with Plan B. It may not even reduce them at all. It is supposed to be an emergency contraceptive, but teens in good amounts, will be more likely to use as primary birth control if they are able in any way possible. This is a bad idea.

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I'm going to let you in on a little secret: This Conservative idea pushed over the last 30 years that the way Israelites lived in 3,000 BC is somehow "cool" is complete effing garbage................................

Plus, we aren't just talking about the way pseudophedrine works here. We are talking about selling Plan B completely OTC, where there isn't even a pharmacist to talk to the teen about the potential problems that misusing Plan B can cause.

Bonzai said:

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: This Conservative idea pushed over the last 30 years that the way Israelites lived in 3,000 BC is somehow "cool" is complete effing garbage................................

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What are you talking about? What part of what I am saying is something from the way Israelites lives long ago? Oh thats right none of it. It is about teaching teenagers responsibility before they are expected to act like adults, and that involves putting some reasonable restrictions on what teens are able to do.

roguenuke said:

So that automatically nulls their ability to correct the situation, make it better? I don't think so. No one is perfect, including good parents.

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Well, yeah it does. The girl already had unprotected sex. At that point, the parents can't reach up her vajayjay and stop the egg from implanting itself.

And we don't allow teens to purchase a lot of items that can be harmful to them so that the decision is left up to someone more responsible. As it should be. And for this. Time is not so critical that she would not have time to get Plan B from an adult, preferably her parents. Most girls won't be buying Plan B that fast anyway. Plus, many think that taking it within 3 days is just as effective as the day after. Wrong info abounds on this issue, info that needs to be corrected for teens by adults, not just left to be wrong.

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It seems that the risk of potential harm is not great enough to justify not selling it OTC. And the girl may not have rushed to the pharmacy. The clock is ticking, and there's no reason to delay.

And it's the pharmacists job to inform their customers about when a drug is indicated and how it works. You can't argue that there's plenty of time (enough to get the parents involved) and then claim that many teens won't get it right away. And the time for parents to educate their children is sometime before they engage in unprotected sex

Your argument really is not about the health of the teen. It's more about the parents. Such beliefs about the proper way to raise a child is not something that should be enforced by a pharmacist.

sangha said:

Well, yeah it does. The girl already had unprotected sex. At that point, the parents can't reach up her vajayjay and stop the egg from implanting itself.




It seems that the risk of potential harm is not great enough to justify not selling it OTC. And the girl may not have rushed to the pharmacy. The clock is ticking, and there's no reason to delay.

And it's the pharmacists job to inform their customers about when a drug is indicated and how it works. You can't argue that there's plenty of time (enough to get the parents involved) and then claim that many teens won't get it right away. And the time for parents to educate their children is sometime before they engage in unprotected sex

Your argument really is not about the health of the teen. It's more about the parents. Such beliefs about the proper way to raise a child is not something that should be enforced by a pharmacist.

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A pharmacist does not have to counsel on OTCs nor are people required to ask questions regarding them. Pharmacist, physician, mid level practitioners, I think some healthcare professional needs to be counselling and evaluating a minor who is about to use Plan B and I think that the parents have a right to be informed and consent to their child's healthcare decision. They are still a minor and the parents are still in charge of their healthcare. In many places you can't give a kid Tylenol at school without parental consent, why should they be able to buy contraceptive synthetic hormones without at least a consultation or conditions for safe use? Making something completely OTC would be putting it on the shelf with everything else that you can just pick up and buy. You don't even need a pharmacist or any kind of healthcare professional present to even buy unregulated OTC products so they may not even have access to anyone that can answer their questions.

roguenuke said:

What are you talking about? What part of what I am saying is something from the way Israelites lives long ago? Oh thats right none of it. It is about teaching teenagers responsibility before they are expected to act like adults, and that involves putting some reasonable restrictions on what teens are able to do.

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The values, they suck..................Get it ?....................................

sangha said:

Well, yeah it does. The girl already had unprotected sex. At that point, the parents can't reach up her vajayjay and stop the egg from implanting itself.

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No, they can help her get better information and help her see that there are better methods to prevent pregnancy than relying on Plan B.

They can't even be aware that they messed up in teaching her about sex if they don't know she even needs Plan B because she can get it on her own.

sangha said:

It seems that the risk of potential harm is not great enough to justify not selling it OTC. And the girl may not have rushed to the pharmacy. The clock is ticking, and there's no reason to delay.

And it's the pharmacists job to inform their customers about when a drug is indicated and how it works. You can't argue that there's plenty of time (enough to get the parents involved) and then claim that many teens won't get it right away. And the time for parents to educate their children is sometime before they engage in unprotected sex

Your argument really is not about the health of the teen. It's more about the parents. Such beliefs about the proper way to raise a child is not something that should be enforced by a pharmacist.

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It is about the health of the teen. Your argument is much less about the health of the teen and more about allowing teens to be free to do whatever they want, unimpeded. I care about side effects of longterm use, or rather misuse of Plan B. I care about a teen not knowing that she can't rely on what should be emergency birth control just because some assume that she would know better than to use it as such. I care about the unintentional pregnancy that I have personally seen result from relying on Plan B as birth control. We should be trying to prevent these in the long run, not coming up with reasons to put temporary bandaids on the problem, unprotected/irresponsible sexual behavior that is continued because the parents are prevented from even having a chance to know about the problem.

Bonzai said:

The values, they suck..................Get it ?....................................

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What values are you talking about? I haven't talked about any values except encouraging responsible sexual activity in teens. I don't care really if teens are having sex, but I do care about kids having unsafe sex because they didn't get information because some expect that they should just know.

digsbe said:

A pharmacist does not have to counsel on OTCs nor are people required to ask questions regarding them. Pharmacist, physician, mid level practitioners, I think some healthcare professional needs to be counselling and evaluating a minor who is about to use Plan B and I think that the parents have a right to be informed and consent to their child's healthcare decision. They are still a minor and the parents are still in charge of their healthcare. In many places you can't give a kid Tylenol at school without parental consent, why should they be able to buy contraceptive synthetic hormones without at least a consultation or conditions for safe use? Making something completely OTC would be putting it on the shelf with everything else that you can just pick up and buy. You don't even need a pharmacist or any kind of healthcare professional present to even buy unregulated OTC products so they may not even have access to anyone that can answer their questions.

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I think that it should be sold by a pharmacist so that someone can provide information (not counseling) to the child. However, I don't a reason to get the parents involved, just as they do not need to be involved every time a child takes an aspirin. Again, your concern is not about the childs health; it's about enforcing the parents control over their children which is not the job of a pharmacist.

roguenuke said:

No, they can help her get better information and help her see that there are better methods to prevent pregnancy than relying on Plan B.

They can't even be aware that they messed up in teaching her about sex if they don't know she even needs Plan B because she can get it on her own.

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The time for teaching their child about sex has passed

It is about the health of the teen. Your argument is much less about the health of the teen and more about allowing teens to be free to do whatever they want, unimpeded. I care about side effects of longterm use, or rather misuse of Plan B. I care about a teen not knowing that she can't rely on what should be emergency birth control just because some assume that she would know better than to use it as such. I care about the unintentional pregnancy that I have personally seen result from relying on Plan B as birth control. We should be trying to prevent these in the long run, not coming up with reasons to put temporary bandaids on the problem, unprotected/irresponsible sexual behavior that is continued because the parents are prevented from even having a chance to know about the problem.

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You are contradicting yourself. On one hand, you say that even kids who just had unprotected sex won't rush to get it, and at the same time argue that all the kids are going to be using it regularly.

And MAPs aren't a temporary band aid. They prevent a pregnancy. Prevented pregnancies don't come back.

As far as sex ed goes, no parent is prevented from teaching their child about it. If they need to hear that their child bought Plan B in order to get their ass in gear, then they're not really being responsible themselves.

I think the purchase should be recorded and put into a data base like other behind-the-counter non-prescription drugs to watch for excessive purchasing and potential abuse and misuse.