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Thread: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    To me it's a bit potato-potahto - why should secular laws be any more just?
    Just laws are based upon the rights and liberties of the individual.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Personally I think its quite clearly granted in the Constitution, but I agree its not spelled out word for word, and not only is it granted but it would be impractical for the system of laws in this country to work without a supreme body of some kind.
    Pretty much everyone agrees it's an inferred power. Some see more evidence for it than others. It is not an explicit power, it's a power the court granted to themselves.

    It would be like a society where individuals could decide which laws to follow and which to not follow. A powerless Federal Government was attempted under the Articles of Confederation and it failed. And it failed because it couldn't even fund itself through taxes, the states each individually had to decided if they wanted to give money to support the government and as a result the government could hardly function because unsurprisingly most states and their legislators didn't want to pay taxes. Did each state have more authority? Yes. Did the system as a whole work? No.
    That was a government without an executive - completely different. And, you have already mentioned the Supremacy clause, which was not in existence under the Articles of Confederation.

    And you would remove the ability of the Supreme Court to have made some of the greatest examples of civil rights achievements in this country's history, things from desegregation to allow inter racial marriages would not exist for everyone equally in this country if it weren't for the ability of the SCOTUS to force the states into line with the Federal Government.
    At the same time it would have removed the ability of the Supreme Court to have made some of the worst examples of civil rights achievements in this country's history -

    Dred Scott: Where Blacks were deemed "an inferior order and altogether unfit to associate with the white race [with] no rights that the white man was bound to respect...The Negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his own benefit."

    Also...
    Plessy v. Ferguson: Jim Crow laws may treat people differently, but that's what makes it all equal!
    Korematsu v. United States: Yes, concentration camps are a great idea!
    Buck v. Bell: Sterilize those idiots, "three generations of imbeciles are enough!"
    etc.

    Again, Thomas Jefferson:
    "Our judges are as honest as other men, and not more so. They have, with others, the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps"

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Just laws are based upon the rights and liberties of the individual.
    Again, I don't see how taking my money to fund research on fly poop or to pay for healthcare of middle-class children are any more "based on the rights and liberties of the individual" than laws that prohibit me from buying beer on Sunday.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Again, I don't see how taking my money to fund research on fly poop or to pay for healthcare of middle-class children are any more "based on the rights and liberties of the individual" than laws that prohibit me from buying beer on Sunday.
    I'm not arguing that they are, I am merely telling you the condition of just law.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Pretty much everyone agrees it's an inferred power. Some see more evidence for it than others. It is not an explicit power, it's a power the court granted to themselves.


    That was a government without an executive - completely different. And, you have already mentioned the Supremacy clause, which was not in existence under the Articles of Confederation.


    At the same time it would have removed the ability of the Supreme Court to have made some of the worst examples of civil rights achievements in this country's history -

    Dred Scott: Where Blacks were deemed "an inferior order and altogether unfit to associate with the white race [with] no rights that the white man was bound to respect...The Negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his own benefit."

    Also...
    Plessy v. Ferguson: Jim Crow laws may treat people differently, but that's what makes it all equal!
    Korematsu v. United States: Yes, concentration camps are a great idea!
    Buck v. Bell: Sterilize those idiots, "three generations of imbeciles are enough!"
    etc.

    Again, Thomas Jefferson:
    "Our judges are as honest as other men, and not more so. They have, with others, the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps"
    Its true the SCOTUS has held up some pretty dreadful stuff in the past, but I think on the whole its been a greater force for good than evil. Even when it has upheld bad things its been at the insistence of only some not all of the states, Plessy v. Ferguson for example. And had the SCOTUS not existed the laws would have been upheld by default since it was the state deciding for itself with no SCOTUS, so really it wouldn't have changed anything at all. But with the Supreme Court they've been able to over turn many of these things which would have lasted who knows how long without the SCOTUS present.

    Could you imagine if in 2013 a black man being segregated when he traveled to Alabama but being a perfectly equal citizen when he went to New York or California? How could our country function as an indivisible body when the rights of citizens change from one state border to another state border?

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    for the edification of the readers here the origins of the nonsensical bill offered up in the North Carolina legislature

    Rowan Co. Commissioners pray before meeting despite ACLU letter | www.wsoctv.com
    SALISBURY, N.C. —

    In what the American Civil Liberties Union will likely perceive as an act of defiance, the Rowan County Board of Commissioners began its Monday night meeting with a prayer.

    The Commission had received notice from the ACLU to discontinue prayer at meetings in light of a Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling that prayer at Forsyth County, NC, meetings was unconstitutional. The US Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal of that ruling.
    ACLU files suit against Rowan Co. for prayer at county meetings | www.wsoctv.com
    ROWAN COUNTY, N.C. —

    The ACLU and three plaintiffs filed a lawsuit Tuesday calling for an injunction stopping Rowan County Commissioners from praying before meetings.

    The ACLU says those prayers violate constitutional rights and make some citizens feel unwelcome.

    "It's a very clear First Amendment issue," said Mike Meno, the communications director for the ACLU of North Carolina.
    Rowan Co. fight over prayer heads to state capitol | www.wsoctv.com
    ROWAN COUNTY, N.C. —

    Rowan County's fight over prayer is now heading to the state capitol.

    Two Rowan County representatives filed the Defense of Religion Act, which allows city and town councils to determine if religion is allowed in meetings without interference from courts.
    from the local newspaper in Rowan County
    Lawmakers file Rowan County Defense of Religion Act | Salisbury Post
    RALEIGH — Local lawmakers are asking the N.C. General Assembly to proclaim the Rowan County Defense of Religion Act of 2013, a resolution that would back county commissioners’ use of sectarian prayer in official meetings.

    But the intent of the resolution and the possible ramifications thereof have led to heated remarks on both sides as lawmakers and legal experts grapple with First Amendment interpretations.
    and here we have the reasoning behind a filing in the legislature that even the originators understand they have no legal basis for their actions. It's all being done for political reasons
    Warren said the proclamation focused on a “literal interpretation” of the First Amendment and was meant to show support for commissioners, not to assert a need for local sovereignty.

    “This is, on my part, more of a demonstration of support more than an effort to have the courts revisit everything,” Warren said.

    The second-term representative said the separation of church and state “has been liberally defined and interpreted” and the resolution intended to support a more conservative understanding.

    But Warren admitted he didn’t expect the bill to go far.

    “I didn’t expect it to go anywhere,” he said, noting that the bill was read into the floor Tuesday morning and referred to the committee for Rules, Calendar and Operations of the House. “Quite often bills go there and never come out.”
    a bit more from some liberal academic type
    Warren and Ford. “They’re throwing the gauntlet down. How much this is going to be binding — it’s a joint resolution — but they’re basically making it known where they’re drawing the line. This will play well within the base, but it calls into question any historical understanding of the past 200-plus years of legal precedents for both understanding the role of religion in the public sphere and the role of states to the federal government.”

    Onward my hearties!
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Could you imagine if in 2013 a black man being segregated when he traveled to Alabama but being a perfectly equal citizen when he went to New York or California? How could our country function as an indivisible body when the rights of citizens change from one state border to another state border?
    You're not going to get me to defend segregation in any way but I will point out that our rights do change quite a bit from border to border, just not as much as they might otherwise.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    You're not going to get me to defend segregation in any way but I will point out that our rights do change quite a bit from border to border, just not as much as they might otherwise.
    I think they would change too much for this country to function without the SCOTUS to enforce a standard, and really that's what we need, that's what all law needs. Regardless of whether the SCOTUS makes good or bad decisions we can't have radical changes in people's individual rights or in the laws that govern them as they cross state borders, that kind of inconsistency won't allow for a stable nation.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I think they would change too much for this country to function without the SCOTUS to enforce a standard, and really that's what we need, that's what all law needs. Regardless of whether the SCOTUS makes good or bad decisions we can't have radical changes in people's individual rights or in the laws that govern them as they cross state borders, that kind of inconsistency won't allow for a stable nation.
    Yeah, I think that ship has sailed and don't expect any major change - but could however see the Executive branch deciding to make an exception under extreme circumstances.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    In your opinion, what does the first amendment prohibit?
    it's not "in my opinion" it's "in the opinion of the people who wrote it"; and what it prohibits is the federal government establishing a religion, with all the religious tests etc. that accrue to such a measure.

    That is why, for example, when Thomas Jefferson wanted Virginia to not have a state church, he had to write it into Virginia's Constitution. Because the Federal Constitution did not cover Virginia in this matter, the States have Police Powers.

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