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Thread: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Oh I'm aware of that. I just am also aware that the doctrine of judicial supremacy is dangerous, crap, and that using the 14th Amendment to Amend other portions of the Constitution that one does not like is also dangerous, and crap.


    Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut and South Carolina all had state Churches at the signing of the Constitution. I rather suspect that the Founders understood the limits of their own intent.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-03-13 at 08:17 PM.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Oh I'm aware of that. I just am also aware that the doctrine of judicial supremacy is dangerous, crap, and that using the 14th Amendment to Amend other portions of the Constitution that one does not like is also dangerous, and crap.
    one thing people think is the 14th gives them civil rights, but it gives them no such thing, its gives them civil privileges only, because government cannot create rights, and the 14th can be repealed at any time.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Oh I'm aware of that. I just am also aware that the doctrine of judicial supremacy is dangerous, crap, and that using the 14th Amendment to Amend other portions of the Constitution that one does not like is also dangerous, and crap.


    Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut and South Carolina all had state Churches at the signing of the Constitution. I rather suspect that the Founders understood the limits of their own intent.
    In the case of at least the New England states, wasn't that because they had been founded as religious colonies ?.................

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Oh I'm aware of that. I just am also aware that the doctrine of judicial supremacy is dangerous, crap, and that using the 14th Amendment to Amend other portions of the Constitution that one does not like is also dangerous, and crap.


    Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut and South Carolina all had state Churches at the signing of the Constitution. I rather suspect that the Founders understood the limits of their own intent.
    The Founders also allowed slavery to continue and did not guarantee women's right to vote, thus proving that their intents are far from infallible.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Oh I'm aware of that. I just am also aware that the doctrine of judicial supremacy is dangerous, crap, and that using the 14th Amendment to Amend other portions of the Constitution that one does not like is also dangerous, and crap.


    Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut and South Carolina all had state Churches at the signing of the Constitution. I rather suspect that the Founders understood the limits of their own intent.
    The founders also understood the Constitution could change, and it has changed. You can't really talk about the intent of the founders and the 14th amendment at the same time.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    The Founders also allowed slavery to continue and did not guarantee women's right to vote, thus proving that their intents are far from infallible.
    no doubt. I'm not really sure how you could say "allowing slavery to continue" indicates fallibility, as I am unaware of a path by which they could have put slavery on a path to be reduced and removed other than that which they chose, that would have allowed the nation to stay together. But that is perhaps a debate for the history forum.

    Regardless, the human nature of the founders is immaterial when applying the Constitution, just as your human nature is immaterial when the bank argues that, yes, in fact, you do owe them the money you borrowed in order to buy a car.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-03-13 at 08:48 PM.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    The founders also understood the Constitution could change, and it has changed.
    That's correct. They set up the Amendment Process.

    You can't really talk about the intent of the founders and the 14th amendment at the same time.
    On the contrary - as the 14th Amendment did not alter the First, when we apply the first we apply it in the context of the latest Constitutional Revision of that article. For applying the 14th Amendment, the relevant intent is of those who authored and voted in that Amendment.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That's correct. They set up the Amendment Process.



    On the contrary - as the 14th Amendment did not alter the First, when we apply the first we apply it in the context of the latest Constitutional Revision of that article. For applying the 14th Amendment, the relevant intent is of those who authored and voted in that Amendment.
    Well I understand that is your opinion and that you don't respect the concept of judicial review as its been applied by the SCOTUS, and I know that you both understand the way things work and how that's different from how you want them to work, unlike some other folks around here. So I guess... we'll just have to disagree on the subject.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no doubt. I'm not really sure how you could say "allowing slavery to continue" indicates infallibility, as I am unaware of a path by which they could have put slavery on a path to be reduced and removed other than that which they chose, that would have allowed the nation to stay together. But that is perhaps a debate for the history forum.

    Regardless, the human nature of the founders is immaterial when applying the Constitution, just as your human nature is immaterial when the bank argues that, yes, in fact, you do owe them the money you borrowed in order to buy a car.
    It is quite material when pointing out how flawed the Constitution really is as a document. Applying the 14th Amendment to the whole rest of the Constitution is an adequate work around to deal with a number of those flaws.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    It is quite material when pointing out how flawed the Constitution really is as a document.
    which might be an interesting historical debate, but is immaterial when discussing whether or how it shall be applied.

    Applying the 14th Amendment to the whole rest of the Constitution is an adequate work around to deal with a number of those flaws.
    That is incorrect for two reasons:

    1. You are just as fallible (very likely more so) than they
    2. It is illegal. It is a return from Rule of Law to Rule of Man, with all the tyrannies that accompany.

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