NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

Slyfox696 said:

Yes, there is. A school is a place to learn. The relationship between adult and child and the relationship between co-workers is very important. I don't care if you carry your firearm at the park or the mall or the store, it doesn't affect what I do and it doesn't affect the learning my student have. But bring a firearm into the equation and the dynamic in the relationship changes dramatically. And there is no way you can possibly argue otherwise, else there would be no point in you arguing for guns in school.

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So which union do you belong to?

Slyfox696 said:

Yes, anything which supports our side must be a losing argument. Seriously, just stop. There are plenty of people who are quality debaters on being pro gun, but right now, you're not striking me as one of them.

And I teach nearly 200 different kids every week in the school I've been a part of for over 20 years. If we're comparing resumes....



Yes, there is. A school is a place to learn. The relationship between adult and child and the relationship between co-workers is very important. I don't care if you carry your firearm at the park or the mall or the store, it doesn't affect what I do and it doesn't affect the learning my student have. But bring a firearm into the equation and the dynamic in the relationship changes dramatically. And there is no way you can possibly argue otherwise, else there would be no point in you arguing for guns in school.

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nothing supports your side when it comes to this issue. victim disarmament zones mean lots of dead innocents. and laws that don't stop capital murderers aren't going to disarm people like Lanza

Lanza is like a Japanese Kamikaze fighter. My father was a deck gunner. Kamikazes considered themselves dead before they ever started their dive into our ships. THe only way to stop them was to blow their planes up before they hit our ships. same with people like Lanza.

I don't have a problem with putting an armed and properly trained law enforcement officer (or two) in our schools, i.e., local police, sheriff, sheriff's deputy or an undercover police officer, whether the educational institution is public, private K-12 or college campus. I do, however, have a problem with arming members of the school faculty. The problems this could cause are vast with the most obvious being wrongful death. Can you imagine a teacher shooting an innocent student he/she thought was the bad guy? And what about the potential of a student getting into a struggle with a teacher and somehow managing to disarm him/her and then using the weapon against said teacher, a student or a member of the school faculty. Or how about if the teacher loses control with a student known to be a problem in the school and in a fit of rage draws his/her weapon and fires.

Arming teachers may sound like a good idea in the wake of such school shootings as Newtown or Columbine, but the truth is it's a dangerous counter-weight to these such unfortunate incidents. The smarter move would be to:

a) make the building more secure; and,

b) put adequate trained security in place both within and outside the school.

For building security, you install better security windows that also meet fire code so that students have escape routes in case of fire, but still allow one-way access (inside-out). If necessary, you make the windows shatter-proof yet easy enough to open from the inside. Add video surveillance so school faculty and/or internal law enforcement can see what's happening inside the school. Secure all external access points with keyless entry so that the public is either buzzed in after opening bell/during school hours or provide all students and faculty with a card-swipe pass-key (student IDs with barcodes could provide same type of entryway security/access). One school I read about recently even went as far as to install a security system where all doors to classroom and external entry points all locked at the push of a panic button. This either contained the would-be criminal right where he stood or kept him from gaining access to any other part of the school. BRILLIANT! Schools could even stick with the somewhat tried but not quite 100% fail-safe of using metal detectors or random searches to find concealed weapons. Any combination of these remedies would catch the bad guy in his tracks and prevent him from doing any (further) harm.

As far as teachers being allowed to carry fire arms on school grounds, the only way I see that concept as feasible is if the teachers took a similar fire arms safety course as local law enforcement, not some 3-day crash course on gun safety. The later is not the same as the former, not even close! Teachers would have to do more than know how to spot the danger; they'd have to know exactly how and when to react. I seriously doubt that your typical school teacher would know what to do in a situation of true civil unrest where they had to draw their weapons and fire on a student or an adult who may very well be a parent to one of the student. Mr. LaPierre may love quoting the line, "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," and it may be a good catch-phrase to rally the 2nd Amendment enthusiast to his side but once an innocent child is shot by one of these gun toottin' enthusiast you can bet the public will start to wonder why they ever gave in to such recklessness.

Slyfox696 said:

Yes, anything which supports our side must be a losing argument. Seriously, just stop. There are plenty of people who are quality debaters on being pro gun, but right now, you're not striking me as one of them.

And I teach nearly 200 different kids every week in the school I've been a part of for over 20 years. If we're comparing resumes....



Yes, there is. A school is a place to learn. The relationship between adult and child and the relationship between co-workers is very important. I don't care if you carry your firearm at the park or the mall or the store, it doesn't affect what I do and it doesn't affect the learning my student have. But bring a firearm into the equation and the dynamic in the relationship changes dramatically. And there is no way you can possibly argue otherwise, else there would be no point in you arguing for guns in school.

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Lets compare resumes. Unlike you, I have done more than teach, I have dealt with active shooter situations. I have shot someone in self defense. I have defended people including LEOs who have shot people. I have been a nationally recognized coach (yes a teacher) longer than you have been teaching and started as an Ivy league varsity coach almost THIRTY years ago along with being a TA then and later a lecturer on law. (Labor and employment law, con Law). So I know a thing or two about teaching and I doubt you have any training in self defensive firearms use.

Test question


If you go to any police department and pull ten officers at random and then go to any gun club or public shooting range and pull ten patrons at random

and have them shoot the police qualification course-be it a paper course or a "hogan's alley" with shoot and no shoot targets

and then have them take the written test that many states require for a CCW license

who do you think will score higher

the cops

or the armed civilians

I know the answer-anyone else want to hazard a guess?

we already have one armed deputy at each school, have for years

Mycroft said:

You make the same mistake the other guy made....not thinking things through. Now, think about it...if an armed teacher, janitor, principle...whatever...has been engaging a shooter when the police arrive, do you honestly think the police are going to fire them up just because they have a gun in their hand?

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I already explained to you they will, based upon the comments the police made at our training.

Please don't say I'm making a mistake when I'm just repeating what I heard from the very people who will be entering my building in that situation. It makes you look silly.

Sounds to me like your police want you to just sit tight in your classroom huddled in a corner with your kids. And it sounds to me like you are content to do just that.

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Yes, because our only two options are obviously to give teachers guns or to huddle in the corner. Of course, that's entirely untrue, as the training I attended a few weeks ago demonstrated.

But don't worry about it, I've read your posts on here before, and I wouldn't expect you to consider the concept of me having a little more understanding of what could happen in those situations than you. After all, I'm only the one who actually had the conversations with the officers and the one who went through the training and will continue to go through the training. And you...well....

I have no reason to apologize to you. Heck, I wasn't even TALKING to you when I made my comments. So...unless you are the sock puppet of the person I WAS talking to, you need to get off your high horse, dude.

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The amusing part is where you were the one accusing others of not thinking things through. Could you please direct me to the moment I asked you to apologize to me?

And they would be thinking like dumbasses

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Given your inability to comprehend what I've said thus far, I'm not sure you're really in the proper position to identify anyone as a dumbass.

You know what? You go right ahead and be *****whipped by the thought of someone choosing to be armed if they think they may be in danger while doing whatever they want to do to live their lives. Like going to church.

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Not surprisingly, my comment went right over your head. Does this happen to you in most threads, or should I feel lucky it's happening in this thread?

Jerry said:

So which union do you belong to?

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There are no teacher unions in Missouri, in fact, it's only been in the last couple of years in which unionizing for teachers has even been legal (2007, I believe). Was there a point to your question?

TurtleDude said:

nothing supports your side when it comes to this issue.

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Except for the low rate of gun crime in most developed countries with strict gun control. But we'll conveniently ignore that since it is so damaging to your case.

TurtleDude said:

Lets compare resumes. Unlike you, I have done more than teach, I have dealt with active shooter situations. I have shot someone in self defense. I have defended people including LEOs who have shot people. I have been a nationally recognized coach (yes a teacher) longer than you have been teaching and started as an Ivy league varsity coach almost THIRTY years ago along with being a TA then and later a lecturer on law. (Labor and employment law, con Law). So I know a thing or two about teaching and I doubt you have any training in self defensive firearms use.

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That's all great for you, but unfortunately for you nothing you said there qualifies you as being informed on the subject of teacher/student dynamics and education in schools K-12. So, again, we're back to the point where you're speaking ignorantly.

If we were to have a conversation on how to properly teach self-defense with a gun, I'll defer to you. If we're going to talk about how a gun changes the relationship between a child and teacher, I'll rely far more on my experience with over 200 different kids every week. Using your logic, since I run my school's website, I'm qualified to tell Steve Ballmer how to run Microsoft. Just as silly as the idea I can run Microsoft is, the idea your history has any relevance in our present discussion is just as silly.

one of the most discredited arguments raised by those who really don't understand the crime issue is braying about other countries. There is absolutely no credible studies that can establish that say England, that had really low rates of crime long before they started restricting guns, and its laws would work here. Indeed, as England BANNED handguns violent Crime INCREASED while our nation, that has at least 300 million guns, increased that number, saw violent crime GO DOWN

I carried guns and knives for years-99% of the people I know never knew I carried

the claim that a teacher is armed with a concealed weapon is somehow going to change the dynamic with a student is probably the bs democratic teachers unions spew in support of democratic party's desire to maintain gun free victim disarmament zones. I call crap on this, I am coaching kids mainly from age 9 until they go to college

and we only want those who are not afraid of guns carrying. those who are terrified to defend themselves or their students are better off not carrying.

TurtleDude said:

one of the most discredited arguments raised by those who really don't understand the crime issue is braying about other countries.

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It's not discredited at all, it just doesn't fit in the neat little box you're trying to construct.

There is absolutely no credible studies that can establish that say England, that had really low rates of crime long before they started restricting guns

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But we're talking about changing the gun culture, don't you remember?

while our nation, that has at least 300 million guns, increased that number, saw violent crime GO DOWN

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Which just so has coincided with a DECREASE in the number of homes which possess a gun (something around 50% in the 1970s and something around 30% today).

Contrary to what you want to believe and what you want others to believe, there is PLENTY of credible evidence that fewer guns result in fewer gun crimes. Not to mention, it's just common sense.

But really, this is off-topic. Let's get back to discussing arming teachers and why it is a bad idea.

Slyfox696 said:

It's not discredited at all, it just doesn't fit in the neat little box you're trying to construct.

But we're talking about changing the gun culture, don't you remember?
Which just so has coincided with a DECREASE in the number of homes which possess a gun (something around 50% in the 1970s and something around 30% today).

Contrary to what you want to believe and what you want others to believe, there is PLENTY of credible evidence that fewer guns result in fewer gun crimes. Not to mention, it's just common sense.

But really, this is off-topic. Let's get back to discussing arming teachers and why it is a bad idea.

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LOL that is just BS

many people refuse to tell those who call them out of the blue that they own guns

arming responsible adults is the ONLY thing that would have stopped lanza

and one of the things that the far wrong never admits is when they talk about fewer guns=fewer crimes it is only true when its FEWER GUNS IN THE HANDS OF CRIMINALS but sadly DEMOCRAT PARTY SCHEMES disarm GOOD PEOPLE and not the bad

if fewer LEGAL guns means fewer crimes why are crime rates decreasing with millions upon millions of guns bought after Obama was elected?

and why is CHCAGO where LEGAL GUN OWNERSHIP IS HIGHLY restricted, a crime ridden cesspool

the NEA talking points are worthless dude.

TurtleDude said:

arming responsible adults is the ONLY thing that would have stopped lanza

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Nonsense. Slyfox696's gun-free zone saved all those children. As soon as Lansa tried to bring a gun into the school, *poof* the anti-gun fairy made his rifle vanish.

TurtleDude said:

the claim that a teacher is armed with a concealed weapon is somehow going to change the dynamic with a student is probably the bs democratic teachers unions spew in support of democratic party's desire to maintain gun free victim disarmament zones.

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I'm neither a Democrat nor apart of any teacher's union.

Just out of curiosity, do people like you just have a random "blame X on Y" playbook? If so, can I see it? I already know it probably includes the following words: liberal, Democrat, union and mainstream media. What else?

And yes, I'm mocking your post. If it wasn't obvious.

I call crap on this

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I don't care what you call, you'd be wrong.

To borrow a quote from the nearly infallible sheriff Andy Taylor, "When a man carries a gun all the time, the respect he thinks he's getting might really be fear". I think this is a good and quick explanation even you should at least be able to consider.

TurtleDude said:

LOL that is just BS

many people refuse to tell those who call them out of the blue that they own guns

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....so...that's somehow different from when they were called in the 70s? Are you trying to say everyone in the 70s told the truth and people now refuse? Do you realize how illogical your comment is here?

arming responsible adults is the ONLY thing that would have stopped lanza

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No, him not having guns in the first place would have stopped him. But if you want armed adults, let's have those armed adults be police officers, not teachers. Which I've said multiple times now.

and one of the things that the far wrong never admits is when they talk about fewer guns=fewer crimes it is only true when its FEWER GUNS IN THE HANDS OF CRIMINALS but sadly DEMOCRAT PARTY SCHEMES disarm GOOD PEOPLE and not the bad

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Seriously, could please show me that playbook?

if fewer LEGAL guns means fewer crimes why are crime rates decreasing with millions upon millions of guns bought after Obama was elected?

and why is CHCAGO where LEGAL GUN OWNERSHIP IS HIGHLY restricted, a crime ridden cesspool

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Perhaps you'll note the general decline in gun homicide in Chicago until the Supreme Court forced Chicago to loosen their gun laws. Again, I know you don't like using facts when they don't fit in your neat little box, but it really is necessary sometimes.

the NEA talking points are worthless dude.

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What's the NEA? And why are you referencing them when I don't even know who they are?

Jerry said:

Nonsense. Slyfox696's gun-free zone saved all those children. As soon as Lansa tried to bring a gun into the school, *poof* the anti-gun fairy made his rifle vanish.

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And yet, if we made it difficult to obtain these weapons, Lanza would have been far less likely to show up at the school at all.

But hey, don't bother actually addressing my REAL position when it is far easier to knock down the strawman. Good show.

This guy's getting all bent out of shape just because I suggested that people be allowed to do a perfectly legal thing in a school.

Slyfox696 said:

And yet, if we made it difficult to obtain these weapons, Lanza would have been far less likely to show up at the school at all.

But hey, don't bother actually addressing my REAL position when it is far easier to knock down the strawman. Good show.

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The gun safe was in his room. The cops found it open, with no sign of forced entry.

Did the recent CT gun control laws even address gun storage?

Jerry said:

This guy's getting all bent out of shape just because I suggested that people be allowed to do a perfectly legal thing in a school.

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Who's getting out of shape? You're the one resorting to fallacious arguments and accusing me of being in a teacher's union which A) I'm not and B) has nothing to do with this debate. It appears to me you are the one FAR more upset with the direction this conversation has going, leading you to blatantly misrepresent my positions and accuse me of things I do not do.

Jerry said:

The gun safe was in his room. The cops found it open, with no sign of forced entry.

Did the recent CT gun control laws even address gun storage?

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Sometimes I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall. I'm not talking about gun storage, I'm talking about guns in general. And a state law will not make a difference, it needs to be federal.

But again, let's get back on topic.

Jerry said:

This guy's getting all bent out of shape just because I suggested that people be allowed to do a perfectly legal thing in a school.

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Jeffrey Snyder (A Nation of Cowards as well as monthly articles in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER) noted that armed citizens accentuate feelings of inadequacy in those who refuse to make personal safety and individual responsibility. Gun banning-to such people-is so virulent because what these people are really trying to do is to rid themselves of their own feelings of timidity.

Slyfox696 said:

Who's getting out of shape? You're the one resorting to fallacious arguments and accusing me of being in a teacher's union which A) I'm not and B) has nothing to do with this debate. It appears to me you are the one FAR more upset with the direction this conversation has going, leading you to blatantly misrepresent my positions and accuse me of things I do not do.



Sometimes I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall. I'm not talking about gun storage, I'm talking about guns in general.

But again, let's get back on topic.

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I have seen many idiotic arguments coming from the ARC over the last 4 decades

the "changing the relationship" between a student and teacher is way up on the list of really clownish claims

Jerry said:

The gun safe was in his room. The cops found it open, with no sign of forced entry.

Did the recent CT gun control laws even address gun storage?

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You know, if I was willing to kill someone who owns guns and I got the drop on them, I can guarantee you I could get them to up a gun safe.

TurtleDude said:

Jeffrey Snyder (A Nation of Cowards as well as monthly articles in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER) noted that armed citizens accentuate feelings of inadequacy in those who refuse to make personal safety and individual responsibility. Gun banning-to such people-is so virulent because what these people are really trying to do is to rid themselves of their own feelings of timidity.

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Which is amusing, because people who argue my side say people like you own a gun to make up for the feeling of inadequacy of what is between your legs. When you understand why the position people on my side take is silly, you'll understand why I find the position you just presented is silly.

Slyfox696 said:

Sometimes I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall. I'm not talking about gun storage, I'm talking about guns in general. And a state law will not make a difference, it needs to be federal.

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So is that a yes or a no? Did CT even address gun storage? I know they banned a bunch of guns, wich doesn't matter because Adam's Bushmaster was AWB compliant, and they made a weapon offender registry which wouldn't have made a difference either because neither Adam or his mother had a criminal history, and they banned mags over 10rnds which is a joke because Columbine was carried out useing AWB compliant 10rnd mags....

Boo Radley said:

I understood it completely. And no, it doesn't. Explains that it is difficult for even the most trained, so therefore it would be next to impossible for the least trained. It's not a hard argument to follow.

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On the contrary. As a moderately well trained individual, I can look at these officers performance and ascertain that either they were atrociously trained, or that (more likely) they chose to utterly ignore their training. Neither of which is an argument that the civilian populace can disarm secure in the knowledge that the state can adequately protect them.

He made the argument that armed civilians would blow away innocents, implicitly contrasting that with his favored policy, which is armed police. When asked to provide examples of armed citizens doing so, he instead provided examples which discredited his own preference.

TurtleDude said:

I have seen many idiotic arguments coming from the ARC over the last 4 decades

the "changing the relationship" between a student and teacher is way up on the list of really clownish claims

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If having a gun doesn't change the dynamic in a relationship, then there's no reason to have a gun at school in the first place. Your entire premise rests on the argument of the gun changing the dynamic of a situation, whether it be to act as a deterrent to those looking to cause harm or to those actively engaging in causing harm.

The fact you dismiss that which you are arguing, when it is no longer convenient for you to argue it, makes your position hypocritical.

Jerry said:

So is that a yes or a no? Did CT even address gun storage?

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I have no idea, I don't live in Connecticut. My response was "your question is irrelevant, because I'm not talking about gun safes in one state, I'm talking about gun availability on a national scale". And both your question and my response is irrelevant to the topic of this thread, which is about arming teachers.

Why is it so hard for so many people like you to follow along with a discussion? I feel like I'm having to hold your hand right now.

Slyfox696 said:

If having a gun doesn't change the dynamic in a relationship, then there's no reason to have a gun at school in the first place. Your entire premise rests on the argument of the gun changing the dynamic of a situation, whether it be to act as a deterrent to those looking to cause harm or to those actively engaging in causing harm.

The fact you dismiss that which you are arguing, when it is no longer convenient for you to argue it, makes your position hypocritical.
I have no idea, I don't live in Connecticut. My response was "your question is irrelevant, because I'm not talking about gun safes in one state, I'm talking about gun availability on a national scale". And both your question and my response is irrelevant to the topic of this thread, which is about arming teachers.

Why is it so hard for so many people like you to follow along with a discussion? I feel like I'm having to hold your hand right now.

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the only time when a gun changes a dynamic is when the gun is actually used. My interaction with non hostiles is no different when I am armed vs not armed

if you actually carried weapons you would understand that

Slyfox696 said:

If having a gun doesn't change the dynamic in a relationship, then there's no reason to have a gun at school in the first place.

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Whenever people start talking about children, you start obsessing about relationships and holding hands....