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Thread: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I was thinking "most cops have a lot more experience with pistols than my one enlistment". And then I saw 200 rnds/year. What? That must be including desk-jobs that merely 'qualify' occasionally. I expect a street cop or other cops very likely to encounter serious criminals to do 200 rnds per week or, at most, month. Just privately, who wouldn't spend a couple days at the range in such a job.

    What's up with that stat?
    And the NYPD's guns have a 13lb trigger. The M9 has a trigger pull of 5lbs. Civilian hand guns, since they can be customized at will, have down to 2-3lb pulls.

    Also, civilians can practice as much as they want, while cops and soldiers cannot....unless we personally own a weapon like our issued weapon, then we can, but anti-gunners don't like privately owned guns at all.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Some of us have actually been in real situations and know personally wtf we're talking about. You apparently just play video-games.
    You have concealed carried in schools and engaged bad guys in close combat?

    You have been in a crowd of civilians and got into a firefight with a few badguys?

    Do tell....

    Now the very idea of a concealed carry teacher staying a secret past the first day is absurd. The idea of ALL the kids and most the parents NOT knowing who that teacher is after the first week is absurd.

    Schools are HUGE, one pistol somewhere in it is like a needle in a hay stack.

    Those of us who know WTF we are doing know it takes far more than one pistol in a school to have a good chance of stopping an active shooter before he either decides to stop or has a stoppage (jam to the amateurs) he can't reduce.

    What someone who has experience in going up against someone actively shooting wants-

    Numbers
    Tactical advantage
    Surprise

    One teacher with a pistol isn't an advantage in numbers

    Having to engage in a hallway is the equiv of a frontal assault, no tactical advantage, no fire and maneuver, no turn a flank

    Since damn near every and any one connected to the school knows who the packing teacher is he can't count on the element of surprise.

    So the single carry teacher has the deck stacked against him before he gets any opportunity to engage,and will engage under several severe disadvantages.

    I'm far more inclined to make the ability of a shooter to gain access to a school far harder than now as opposed to putting a pistol packing teacher in a school.

    I'm far more inclined to believe the best an armed teacher could do, if not targeted by the shooter right off the bat, is be a firewall. The shooter gets his way up until he runs into the teacher semi barricaded in a doorway and blocks further movement into the school.

    But I'd say the first victim in such a school will be that teacher. Save lives? Possible, but so would making the job of an unauthorized entry far more difficult than it is.

    Grunts know, once the bad guy(s) breech the perimeter all hell breaks loose.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You didn't do that either. A locked up gun is unless, so that's a bad idea.
    Having a gun in a small lock box mounted under the desk with a finger print reader, is not useless. It could easily be accessed within a couple of seconds. We're talking about 10's of thousands of teachers all over America, 99.99% of which will never need to use the gun. I know you're "Quick-Draw-Always-Packing-Jerry", but having guns strapped to that many teachers is completely unnecessary.

    I guess you'd prefer they have them out at the low ready at all times right? Just in case. Wouldn't want to be bothered by a few seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Oh, but you don't want the other guy having a gun because then you don't get to pretend you are powerful. If they are a right then they should be free for everyone.
    Pretend they are powerful? If a shooter busts into a church, and 10 people stand up and return fire, the odds are heavily in the congregation's favor.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    You have been in a crowd of civilians and got into a firefight with a few badguys?
    Yes. With a belt-few weapon, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Now the very idea of a concealed carry teacher staying a secret past the first day is absurd. The idea of ALL the kids and most the parents NOT knowing who that teacher is after the first week is absurd.
    Then you don't know anything about the art of concealment. I've carried at jobs for years without detection.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Schools are HUGE, one pistol somewhere in it is like a needle in a hay stack.
    Exactly. Damn hard to find. There's so many reguler ordinary things to distract you from noticing, even if you're actively looking for someone packing heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Those of us who know WTF we are doing know it takes far more than one pistol in a school to have a good chance of stopping an active shooter before he either decides to stop or has a stoppage (jam to the amateurs) he can't reduce.
    In most cases all you have to do is challenge the active shooter and he kills himself. The OR mall shooter, for example, killed himself immediately after a civilian pointed a pistol at him.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    What someone who has experience in going up against someone actively shooting wants-

    Numbers
    Tactical advantage
    Surprise

    One teacher with a pistol isn't an advantage in numbers
    Spoken like someone who's never had to pull the trigger.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Having to engage in a hallway is the equiv of a frontal assault, no tactical advantage, no fire and maneuver, no turn a flank
    Save your speeches for your paintball team.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Since damn near every and any one connected to the school knows who the packing teacher is he can't count on the element of surprise.
    Because a uniformed Recourse Officer carrying their gun openly is so much more discrete.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    So the single carry teacher has the deck stacked against him before he gets any opportunity to engage,and will engage under several severe disadvantages.
    I think you play to many video games.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I'm far more inclined to make the ability of a shooter to gain access to a school far harder than now as opposed to putting a pistol packing teacher in a school.
    Adam Lansa shot his way past all such obstacles. They wouldn't let him in, so he shot out the window and forced entry, then when the staff in the office tried stop him, he just shot them.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I'm far more inclined to believe.....
    Words cannot express how deeply I sincerely do not care about what you believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Grunts know, once the bad guy(s) breech the perimeter all hell breaks loose.
    And that's why your bull**** about strategy means exactly squat. Everything becomes chaos. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Having a gun in a small lock box mounted under the desk with a finger print reader, is not useless.
    It is when you're not sitting at the desk. Teachers aren't always in the class room; some classes occur in other parts of the school, and recess, and lunch, and gymn, and field trips....leaving loaded firearms unattended is always a bad idea. Any of those kids can YouTube a given lock-box to see if there's a hack, and open it. No, the gun needs to stay on the owner's person so that it's always in their immediate possession and control.

    In SD we have a Sentinel Program where it's not just the teacher packing heat, but any employee. Janitors don't have desks. When I visit the school, I don't have a desk either because I'm not a teacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    It could easily be accessed within a couple of seconds. We're talking about 10's of thousands of teachers all over America, 99.99% of which will never need to use the gun. I know you're "Quick-Draw-Always-Packing-Jerry", but having guns strapped to that many teachers is completely unnecessary.
    "Strapped"? WTF kind of holsters do you use? Non of my holsters have straps.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I guess you'd prefer they have them out at the low ready at all times right? Just in case. Wouldn't want to be bothered by a few seconds.
    See I knew you had a sense of humor somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Pretend they are powerful? If a shooter busts into a church, and 10 people stand up and return fire, the odds are heavily in the congregation's favor.
    If a shooter busts into a school, and 10 faculty members stand up and return fire, the odds are heavily in the faculty's favor.
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-03-13 at 02:32 PM.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    I'm reminded of my best friend in 4th grade who had really bad asthma. He kept his inhaler on him because when he had an attack, there was no time, not even seconds, to go to the office for it.

    ...and what person experiencing an asthma attack can run at all anyway?

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Yes. With a belt-few weapon, too. Then you don't know anything about the art of concealment. I've carried at jobs for years without detection. Exactly. Damn hard to find. There's so many reguler ordinary things to distract you from noticing, even if you're actively looking for someone packing heat. In most cases all you have to do is challenge the active shooter and he kills himself. The OR mall shooter, for example, killed himself immediately after a civilian pointed a pistol at him. Spoken like someone who's never had to pull the trigger. Save your speeches for your paintball team. Because a uniformed Recourse Officer carrying their gun openly is so much more discrete. I think you play to many video games. Adam Lansa shot his way past all such obstacles. They wouldn't let him in, so he shot out the window and forced entry, then when the staff in the office tried stop him, he just shot them. Words cannot express how deeply I sincerely do not care about what you believe. And that's why your bull**** about strategy means exactly squat. Everything becomes chaos. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    So you shot it out with bad guys in a school with children running around with a belt fed weapon? Your ahhhh 'experience' grows with each telling!

    I'd say your years of concealed carry were not around people who knew some were carrying, I doubt you'd last a week before all the kids knew you packed. You again show no real experience in what goes on as the crap goes down. Those kids would be on a mission to figure out which persona was packing, I'd wager quite a few who work around you tend to do their best to ignore you...see a difference?

    You just keep believing all you have to do is challenge a shooter and he offs himself... 6 teachers at the school would claim otherwise... umm wait they can't because they are dead! And please say the shooter could tell they were not armed because then you contradict yourself on spotting armed teachers amid the 'choas'.

    Oh I have pilled the trigger, used stripper clips, belt fed weapons, claymores, LAWs, the old 'thumper'... have my scars to prove I did more than pose for moto photos! Again I am not claiming a show of force, as weak as a single person is is what would work.

    Adam Lanza didn't shoot his way past effective barriers like are being introduced in schools across the nation. You again make crap up.

    Frankly you have proven time and time again you have no real experience and just like to pretend you know crap.

    what i said was a truly hardened school wouldn't have let Lanza in. The money/effort is better spent on barriers to entry than a teacher most everyone knows is armed.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It is when you're not sitting at the desk. Teachers aren't always in the class room; some classes occur in other parts of the school, and recess, and lunch, and gymn, and field trips....leaving loaded firearms unattended is always a bad idea. Any of those kids can YouTube a given lock-box to see if there's a hack, and open it. No, the gun needs to stay on the owner's person so that it's always in their immediate possession and control.

    In SD we have a Sentinel Program where it's not just the teacher packing heat, but any employee. Janitors don't have desks. When I visit the school, I don't have a desk either because I'm not a teacher.


    "Strapped"? WTF kind of holsters do you use? Non of my holsters have straps.


    See I knew you had a sense of humor somewhere.


    If a shooter busts into a school, and 10 faculty members stand up and return fire, the odds are heavily in the faculty's favor.
    The problem is, teachers conceal carrying on campus will not be happening for a very long time, if at all. Half the country is ridiculous, and doesn't believe that there should be a single gun on a school campus. Trying to pitch and idea like yours doesn't really help the cause, and honestly just fuels the "they want every teacher to be armed, blah, blah, blah" hyperbole.

    Just as many governments in the past have used incrementalism to take guns away, we need to use incrementalism to bring more guns back. We need to start with little steps, like just getting a gun on campus at all, let people get used to the idea, and see that it's not the end of the world, then move further as necessary.

    Unfortunately the US is not a country of quick change for things like this, it needs to be done in well thought out baby steps.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Half of the people at my parents church conceal carry, and they all seem to enjoy the sense of security. When you use ridiculous hyperbole like "passing out guns at the door", it just makes you look lazy and desperate.
    Personally, I have a bit of a theological problem with feeling the need to carry a firearm to church. Christianity is about trusting the Lord. Sorry, but having a gun in church under the misguided notion that you are protecting your sorry self represents pretty low trust in the Lord.

    On the other hand, those that have so little trust need to be in church with their Bibles open.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    The problem is, teachers conceal carrying on campus will not be happening for a very long time, if at all.
    Oh just...stop.

    Guns on Campus: Overview

    Colleges and Universities that Allow Guns on Campus | Armed Campuses

    Guns On Campus: Texas, Arkansas Legislators File To Allow Concealed Carry At Colleges

    House panel OKs bill allowing guns on campuses

    Concealed Carry Weapon Laws & College Campuses


    In the United States, 49 out of 50 states have concealed carry weapons laws. Currently, there are 21 states that ban carrying a concealed weapon on a college campus: Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, *Texas, and Wyoming.


    In 23 states the decision to ban or allow concealed carry weapons on campuses is made by each college or university individually: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, and West Virginia.


    Due to recent state legislation and court rulings, 5 states now have provisions allowing the carrying of concealed weapons on public post-secondary campuses. These states are Colorado, Mississippi, Oregon, Utah, and Wisconsin.
    *Texas has introduced legislation to allow those with a TX CCW to carry on campus.


    Oregon Firearms Federation


    Putting aside for a moment that Oregon does not issue "concealed weapons permits," this school just like every other public school in the state, has NO authority to forbid a person with a concealed handgun license from entering school property. While both Oregon and Federal law forbid people from being on school property with firearms, concealed handgun license holders are exempt from both laws.Oregon statute 166.370 forbids firearms in "public buildings" which schools are, but subsection B says "this section does not apply to:... (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun"


    As we have said elsewhere, if you have a child you maycarry unto public school property.

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