Because I look at some of the other "gun training requirements" which exist and I'm not encouraged. For example, if I'm not mistaken, a concealed carry permit in Missouri requires a total of 8 hours of training, to be divided into class time and range time. According to my father, who has his permit, many classes are more around 4 hours and half of that is just sitting around shooting the bull.Why would you think that they would have to be not trained well.
I don't know what the official requirements would be from state to state, but I think you and I both know it's not too difficult to imagine strict initial requirements, and then a gradual lessening over the years to the point where it's 8 hours and shooting the bull.
Any moron can shoot a gun. 12,000 gun related homicides in America prove that and that's something upon which we can both agree. But something like this is about FAR more than just shooting a gun.How difficult do you think it is to shoot a gun?
If a gunman entered a school classroom, the teacher would be dead almost immediately. Him/her having a gun likely wouldn't matter.I understand that if there was a shooting that there would be panic, but I see nothing wrong if a gunman or gunmen entered a school classroom and the teacher had the children hide under their desks while the teacher could take cover behind his or her desk and shoot the gunman. That would be better than throwing erasers, pencils and books I think.
The fact I hope our police are held to a higher standard? The fact it is their job to protect, while it's a teacher's job to educate?Also, I don't have a problem with armed guards either, but what makes you think that they would be any more well trained?
We knew which teachers wore thongs in school, sometimes even the color.It would be easy enough to make it so that no one found out who was carrying and who was not. Do they know what color underwear you wear too?
Yes, we knew.
But you're not a teacher. So you don't appreciate the lengths a teacher has to go to in order to make the connection with the student. Sometimes it is easy, and sometimes it's very difficult.I'm also a parent . . . so I don't know what point you are trying to make here.
It's not odd. How do you not understand this? A teacher has a relationship with a student. They have to, any person you interact with on a regular basis is someone you have a relationship with. Maybe it's a bad relationship, maybe it's a great one, or maybe it is somewhere in between, but you definitely have a relationship. The relationship a teacher needs to have with a student is one in which the teacher respects the student, but more importantly, where the student respects the teacher. A student who respects the teacher is one who will receive the best education the teacher can provide. But a teacher needs to know the relationship with the student is based upon the student and teacher, and not the gun. The gun changes the relationship, a gun always changes a relationship.What's odd about it is that you are trying to somehow link a relationship with the students to a teacher carrying concealed.
I explained in more detail in the post I directed you to previously.
Because a gun changes a relationship between people, and the relationship between student and teacher is vital.I was making no such assumptions. I was just commenting that I don't see how it fits in with this conversation.
No, I've actually considered you to be the most reasonable and rational thus far, to the point I was surprised at your last post. You have not received any attitude from me.In other words, you're getting an attitude.
If the answer to any of those questions is yes (and I'd bet my next paycheck one of those is a yes, especially considering how elementary teachers work), then you had a relationship with your teacher.
And again, they will know. Between the teacher, the administrators, the school board, other teachers, the teacher's kids, etc....the kids will know. You're just being naive if you think otherwise.Again, the children do NOT have to know about the gun.
It has nothing to do with me being fearful. Please understand this. And if the gun is not loaded, what's the point in having it?You don't even make sense. The gun cannot do anything without a person to load it and pull the trigger. I'll bet that you come in contact with people all the time who are carrying and you don't even know. Why are you so fearful?
Slyfox-your long winded posts turn lots of people off. and we get the fact you are afraid of guns and don't know much, if anything, about the use of defensive weapons or the mythical changing dynamic you bray about premised apparently on a faith-based myth that comes from the anti gunner's book of hysteria.
How are kids going to know who is packing. Tell me your many years of experience carrying a firearm concealed.
I have a healthy respect for guns, like any sensible person does. My father is a big fan of guns. He has his concealed carry permit, guns in almost every room of the house, regularly goes to the shooting range, etc. I've been around guns.and we get the fact you are afraid of guns and don't know much
But you're right, I probably don't know nearly as much about guns as my father or several people in this thread, though probably more than you credit to me. But since we're not engaging in a debate about guns, but rather education, my relative ignorance to firearms is a moot point. However, the ignorance of other people to education is a far bigger distraction to the debate.
This is a lot of fancy nonsense. First of all, you're lying if you try to claim a gun doesn't change how people interact with each other. Second of all...faith based myth? Exactly what faith? Third of all, I don't read from an anti gunner's book of hysteria. I have no problems with certain types of guns. I just prefer moderation to extremes and arming teachers is an extreme. Reacting with extreme to an extreme is absurd. And as someone who is a teacher, I know my kids and I know they would react differently with the idea some teachers would be carrying. It's not hysteria, it's just simple logic.the mythical changing dynamic you bray about premised apparently on a faith-based myth that comes from the anti gunner's book of hysteria.
Okay...I have once before, but I will again, in more detail.How are kids going to know who is packing.
We're going to assume a teacher who is armed will require training, correct? We'll assume (falsely, most likely) the school does NOT pay for the training or firearm, and the teacher does it all on their own (thus mitigating the necessity for the school to publicly declare in their budget the firearms training...this works in your favor). In order for something like this to happen, training requirements would be set for these teachers and they would have to attend classes and have a registered trainer sign off on the hours the teacher prepared him/herself. So already, the teacher of the gun class knows who will be an armed teacher, as will the person who is required to verify the teacher has completed the training (and continues his/her training). There's at least one other person who knows, maybe two.
Now is our teacher (and I'm going to consider the teacher a male from here on out) the only one in the class? Of course not. And since it's unreasonable to have a statewide training in one location, training will be done at a local level. This means our teacher will be training along with other teachers, teachers from the same communities. We also can reasonably assume we're not going to build additional facilities to do this training, so training will be done in many of the same places who are licensed to conduct concealed carry class. Let's say there are 10 other teachers with our own, and the trainer regularly sees 25 customers (a small number, but it'll work). There are now a total of 12 people who know which teacher is attending training, with the possibility of up to 25 more learning from the trainer, who is not required to not tell anyone. Let's say the trainer just tells one of his best customers. Right now there are 13 people who know our teacher will be carrying in the school.
Of course, the school has to know who our carrying teachers are as well. This includes administrators, the board of education and at least one district secretary who will be required to file the information with the state. Using my rather small school as an example, this means all principals will know (3 of them), as will the assistant high school principal, the superintendent, her secretary and the 9 members of the board of education. Now there are 28 people who know which teacher is carrying a weapon. We have not even talked about spouses or children, and we're at 28 people. Of those 28 people, only 5 of them have any real need to keep the information secret (after all, the board of education has to make voters happy so they can be re-elected...they regularly speak on things they shouldn't), so 23 people have the opportunity to tell someone with no real reason they shouldn't. By then, it becomes a game of telephone, and suddenly most in the community know.
But, for arguments sake, let's say none of those people say anything, an unlikely scenario, but we'll address it. Where is a teacher going to keep the gun? Obviously not on his hip, because there's no way that could stay concealed. The two best options that I can see are a shoulder holster covered by a jacket or an ankle holster. The problem with the jacket is that teachers don't wear jackets. A teacher who suddenly started to wear a sports coat all the time would be a pretty good indication he's hiding something. So that's not really a good option. So the only one left is an ankle holster. The problem with an ankle holster is that teachers don't sit at desks. Teachers are constantly up moving around, demonstrating things, contorting to weird positions to help a student. All it takes is for one student to notice the bulge, and then everyone in school will know.
The kids will know. It's just naive to think they wouldn't.
I'd apologize for the "long-winded" response, but I just am trying to answer your question. And I didn't even go into detail about the teacher having to leave class during the active shooter drill.
Last edited by Slyfox696; 04-07-13 at 09:16 AM.
There are actually many other options for concealed carry.
There are "money belt/belly band" rigs, which are concealed under the waistline, along with different types of IWB (inside the waistband) holsters and rigs. There's pocket carry... you could spend an hour in close conversation with a man who had a Kel-Tec .380 in his pocket in an IPH (inside pocket holster) and never know he was carrying a gun.
There are rigs, like reinforced T-shirts with built-in holsters, that allow one to carry a gun in a "shoulder holster position" under an ordinary shirt. Compact pistols these days can come in effective calibers like .380 and 9mm which are not large enough to show a noticeable "bulge".
Over the past 30 years, as interest has expanded, options for discreet concealed carry have also expanded a great deal.
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