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NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

tererun said:
they will need an armed guard to shoot you when you go nuts and start blowing people away in the parking lot. That is what MAD is all about.
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No everyone else with a gun will take care of me then. No designated guard needed.
 
upsideguy said:
I love the witty retorts you often get on DP. When you get a meaningless, unthoughtful retort that contributes nothing to the dialogue it makes us really appreciate the cleaver. Maybe there is a witty poster somewhere on this thread.

I'm sorry, unless you are a teacher in a classroom with but novice gun handling experience involved in a school shooting you have no more basis of understanding of "wtf your are talking about" than I. So stick to adult debate.
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In SD our teachers take the exact same annual training our cops do. So once again you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Thank goodness for the NRA providing a plan which would require the purchases of an untold amount of guns and ammunition all across the country. I'm so glad they have children's interests at heart, and not the interest of the gun manufacturers who stand to make an enormous profit from the NRA plan.

Thank God the NRA is above using a tragedy such as the massacre of children to make buckets of money for the industry who produced the guns and ammunition used in the children's death.
 
cpwill said:
:shrug: then he needs to better explain himself. He is clear that we should not depend upon armed individuals, but rather depend upon armed police officers. When asked to defend his claim that armed individuals would fire into crowds of people, the only evidence he was able to come up with was an example of..... police officers doing so. His evidence belies his arguments.
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I understood it completely. And no, it doesn't. Explains that it is difficult for even the most trained, so therefore it would be next to impossible for the least trained. It's not a hard argument to follow.
 
Gathomas88 said:
How many mass shooting have taken place at Churches in the last two decades?
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Don't know. But I do know there have been quite a few bombings and other such instances of violence. The thing is, violence can happen anywhere at anytime.
 
Boo Radley said:
Don't know. But I do know there have been quite a few bombings and other such instances of violence. The thing is, violence can happen anywhere at anytime.
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The major area of concern in today's society is school safety. Armed guards would be an excellent first step towards correcting this particular concern.

We can cross any other bridges which might present themselves when we come to them.
 
Gathomas88 said:
The major area of concern in today's society is school safety. Armed guards would be an excellent first step towards correcting this particular concern.

We can cross any other bridges which might present themselves when we come to them.
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While I think liberals overreact in their reliance on new laws, armed guards is also an overreaction. It too breeds an overconfidence that is false and can be as problematic. Once we go down the road of providing armed guards, there will be a lot of roads to cross, just as their is with new laws.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
They shouldn't be able to carry in class. But for those that want it, they should have access to a lock box with their weapon. The lock box should be tamper proof so that if it's ever opened in a non-emergency, the principle or controlling agent will know about it.
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Personally I think a teacher should be able to strap their irons on as they see fit.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
It needs to be paired with better security on campus to alert sooner to a threat. The gun will be very close by, and very quick to access, but the box will still restrict access to unauthorized personnel.
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Sure, someone pulls a knife on you and you're going to ask them to wait while you run all the way to the other side of the campus to get your gun.

That's so ****ing retarded.

It's incredibly difficult to disarm someone without getting shot in the process. No box required.
 
MaggieD said:
I don't think it's a good idea myself. One person. If an alarm was sounded that there was trouble, one guy is going to go "charging into the mix". They don't even do that in law enforcement. One person. With a target on his back. One person. Who, when the chips were down, if he isn't scared to death to get involved, he most assuredly should be. Would that person go charging in??

No. False sense of security. Waste of resources. For that one person's couple-year salary and benefits, a school could beef up their alarm systems, install wired alarms to the police department, put locks on classroom doors and, with the help of local law enforcement, come up with a first-alert system that might make a difference.

That and allowing personnel to carry weapons where it's legal to do so is probably the best we can do.
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Meanwhile while you are waiting for the cops that are 5-15 minutes away to respond that shooter is shooting locks and killing people. An alarm system and having locks is all good and all but those are last line of defense type things.
 
iguanaman said:
Every gathering place is at risk. AR-15's are the most popular gun in the country.
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And are responsible for < 1% of murders.

If you're going to be shot, its probably going to be a handgun.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Thank goodness for the NRA providing a plan which would require the purchases of an untold amount of guns and ammunition all across the country. I'm so glad they have children's interests at heart, and not the interest of the gun manufacturers who stand to make an enormous profit from the NRA plan.

Thank God the NRA is above using a tragedy such as the massacre of children to make buckets of money for the industry who produced the guns and ammunition used in the children's death.
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Maybe Big Sis can spring for a few guns and a bunch of ammunition. She's got a lot of it, after all...paid for with our money.
 
Manc Skipper said:
So gun owners suddenly switch to "mad" setting when they run amok, spraying bullets into their surroundings. Got you.
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that's really silly. you believe in punishing people before they do anything wrong thinking that will stop those who intend to do wrong from having the tools to murder
 
iguanaman said:
Every gathering place is at risk. AR-15's are the most popular gun in the country.
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another lie. 22 caliber rimfires are far more popular. I suspect there are more remington 870 shotguns than AR 15s as well
 
upsideguy said:
I don't think its a stretch to claim that NYPD officers, in all probability, will have better arms training than almost any teacher packing heat:

NYPD confirms: All bystanders in Empire State attack hit by police bullets - U.S. News


[url]http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/opinion/frum-guns-safer

[/URL]
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yeah it is a stretch. My 15 year old is far better trained in pistol use than the vast majority of NYPD cops. I doubt he'd shoot at a guy in a door step 41 times and miss as many times as they did. Of course he shoots about 10,000 rounds a year in practice. The average cop shoots less than 200 rounds a year. Most cops are crappy shots but the good news is that most criminals are far worse.
 
Boo Radley said:
While I think liberals overreact in their reliance on new laws, armed guards is also an overreaction. It too breeds an overconfidence that is false and can be as problematic. Once we go down the road of providing armed guards, there will be a lot of roads to cross, just as their is with new laws.
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How so? Having an armed presence in and around schools has prevented shootings from escalating in the past.

Armed Guard Stops School Shooter After He Opened Fire at Atlanta Middle School

It could also serve as an active deterrent against future attacks. The sort of disturbed and feckless coward who shoots up a school full of defenseless children isn't exactly the kind of person to willingly walk into a confrontation that they might potentially lose, after all.

Besides, hiring a couple of rent-a-cops to stand guard is hardly going to break the bank. There is absolutely no logical reason to oppose the more moderate aspects of what the NRA is suggesting here, other than irrational anti-gun bias.

iguanaman said:
Every gathering place is at risk. AR-15's are the most popular gun in the country.
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:roll:
 
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TurtleDude said:
yeah it is a stretch. My 15 year old is far better trained in pistol use than the vast majority of NYPD cops. I doubt he'd shoot at a guy in a door step 41 times and miss as many times as they did. Of course he shoots about 10,000 rounds a year in practice. The average cop shoots less than 200 rounds a year. Most cops are crappy shots but the good news is that most criminals are far worse.
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I was thinking "most cops have a lot more experience with pistols than my one enlistment". And then I saw 200 rnds/year. What? That must be including desk-jobs that merely 'qualify' occasionally. I expect a street cop or other cops very likely to encounter serious criminals to do 200 rnds per week or, at most, month. Just privately, who wouldn't spend a couple days at the range in such a job.

What's up with that stat?
 
ecofarm said:
I was thinking "most cops have a lot more experience with pistols than my one enlistment". And then I saw 200 rnds/year. What? That must be including desk-jobs that merely 'qualify' occasionally. I expect a street cop or other cops very likely to encounter serious criminals to do 200 rnds per week or, at most, month. Just privately, who wouldn't spend a couple days at the range in such a job.

What's up with that stat?
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And the NYPD's guns have a 13lb trigger. The M9 has a trigger pull of 5lbs. Civilian hand guns, since they can be customized at will, have down to 2-3lb pulls.

Also, civilians can practice as much as they want, while cops and soldiers cannot....unless we personally own a weapon like our issued weapon, then we can, but anti-gunners don't like privately owned guns at all.
 
Jerry said:
Some of us have actually been in real situations and know personally wtf we're talking about. You apparently just play video-games.
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You have concealed carried in schools and engaged bad guys in close combat?

You have been in a crowd of civilians and got into a firefight with a few badguys?

Do tell....

Now the very idea of a concealed carry teacher staying a secret past the first day is absurd. The idea of ALL the kids and most the parents NOT knowing who that teacher is after the first week is absurd.

Schools are HUGE, one pistol somewhere in it is like a needle in a hay stack.

Those of us who know WTF we are doing know it takes far more than one pistol in a school to have a good chance of stopping an active shooter before he either decides to stop or has a stoppage (jam to the amateurs) he can't reduce.

What someone who has experience in going up against someone actively shooting wants-

Numbers
Tactical advantage
Surprise

One teacher with a pistol isn't an advantage in numbers

Having to engage in a hallway is the equiv of a frontal assault, no tactical advantage, no fire and maneuver, no turn a flank

Since damn near every and any one connected to the school knows who the packing teacher is he can't count on the element of surprise.

So the single carry teacher has the deck stacked against him before he gets any opportunity to engage,and will engage under several severe disadvantages.

I'm far more inclined to make the ability of a shooter to gain access to a school far harder than now as opposed to putting a pistol packing teacher in a school.

I'm far more inclined to believe the best an armed teacher could do, if not targeted by the shooter right off the bat, is be a firewall. The shooter gets his way up until he runs into the teacher semi barricaded in a doorway and blocks further movement into the school.

But I'd say the first victim in such a school will be that teacher. Save lives? Possible, but so would making the job of an unauthorized entry far more difficult than it is.

Grunts know, once the bad guy(s) breech the perimeter all hell breaks loose.
 
Jerry said:
You didn't do that either. A locked up gun is unless, so that's a bad idea.
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Having a gun in a small lock box mounted under the desk with a finger print reader, is not useless. It could easily be accessed within a couple of seconds. We're talking about 10's of thousands of teachers all over America, 99.99% of which will never need to use the gun. I know you're "Quick-Draw-Always-Packing-Jerry", but having guns strapped to that many teachers is completely unnecessary.

I guess you'd prefer they have them out at the low ready at all times right? Just in case. Wouldn't want to be bothered by a few seconds.

tererun said:
Oh, but you don't want the other guy having a gun because then you don't get to pretend you are powerful. If they are a right then they should be free for everyone.
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Pretend they are powerful? If a shooter busts into a church, and 10 people stand up and return fire, the odds are heavily in the congregation's favor.
 
notquiteright said:
You have been in a crowd of civilians and got into a firefight with a few badguys?
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Yes. With a belt-few weapon, too.

notquiteright said:
Now the very idea of a concealed carry teacher staying a secret past the first day is absurd. The idea of ALL the kids and most the parents NOT knowing who that teacher is after the first week is absurd.
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Then you don't know anything about the art of concealment. I've carried at jobs for years without detection.

notquiteright said:
Schools are HUGE, one pistol somewhere in it is like a needle in a hay stack.
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Exactly. Damn hard to find. There's so many reguler ordinary things to distract you from noticing, even if you're actively looking for someone packing heat.

notquiteright said:
Those of us who know WTF we are doing know it takes far more than one pistol in a school to have a good chance of stopping an active shooter before he either decides to stop or has a stoppage (jam to the amateurs) he can't reduce.
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In most cases all you have to do is challenge the active shooter and he kills himself. The OR mall shooter, for example, killed himself immediately after a civilian pointed a pistol at him.

notquiteright said:
What someone who has experience in going up against someone actively shooting wants-

Numbers
Tactical advantage
Surprise

One teacher with a pistol isn't an advantage in numbers
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Spoken like someone who's never had to pull the trigger.

notquiteright said:
Having to engage in a hallway is the equiv of a frontal assault, no tactical advantage, no fire and maneuver, no turn a flank
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Save your speeches for your paintball team.

notquiteright said:
Since damn near every and any one connected to the school knows who the packing teacher is he can't count on the element of surprise.
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Because a uniformed Recourse Officer carrying their gun openly is so much more discrete.

notquiteright said:
So the single carry teacher has the deck stacked against him before he gets any opportunity to engage,and will engage under several severe disadvantages.
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I think you play to many video games.

notquiteright said:
I'm far more inclined to make the ability of a shooter to gain access to a school far harder than now as opposed to putting a pistol packing teacher in a school.
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Adam Lansa shot his way past all such obstacles. They wouldn't let him in, so he shot out the window and forced entry, then when the staff in the office tried stop him, he just shot them.

notquiteright said:
I'm far more inclined to believe.....
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Words cannot express how deeply I sincerely do not care about what you believe.

notquiteright said:
Grunts know, once the bad guy(s) breech the perimeter all hell breaks loose.
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And that's why your bull**** about strategy means exactly squat. Everything becomes chaos. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Having a gun in a small lock box mounted under the desk with a finger print reader, is not useless.
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It is when you're not sitting at the desk. Teachers aren't always in the class room; some classes occur in other parts of the school, and recess, and lunch, and gymn, and field trips....leaving loaded firearms unattended is always a bad idea. Any of those kids can YouTube a given lock-box to see if there's a hack, and open it. No, the gun needs to stay on the owner's person so that it's always in their immediate possession and control.

In SD we have a Sentinel Program where it's not just the teacher packing heat, but any employee. Janitors don't have desks. When I visit the school, I don't have a desk either because I'm not a teacher.

RabidAlpaca said:
It could easily be accessed within a couple of seconds. We're talking about 10's of thousands of teachers all over America, 99.99% of which will never need to use the gun. I know you're "Quick-Draw-Always-Packing-Jerry", but having guns strapped to that many teachers is completely unnecessary.
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"Strapped"? WTF kind of holsters do you use? Non of my holsters have straps.

RabidAlpaca said:
I guess you'd prefer they have them out at the low ready at all times right? Just in case. Wouldn't want to be bothered by a few seconds.
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See I knew you had a sense of humor somewhere.

RabidAlpaca said:
Pretend they are powerful? If a shooter busts into a church, and 10 people stand up and return fire, the odds are heavily in the congregation's favor.
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If a shooter busts into a school, and 10 faculty members stand up and return fire, the odds are heavily in the faculty's favor.
 
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