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Thread: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    "Active shooter" scenarios are a part of police training, and so are also a part of Sentinel training, since Sentinels take the exact same firearms course as the local police department. A Sentinel is as capable of handling an active shooter as any local cop. A Sentinel is less likely to shoot a child than the mass killer because the Sentinel is aiming at the mass killer, not children, while the mass killer is aiming at the children, not his own head. Did I say that right? We see this kind of unknowable presence of Sentinels as a good thing, because someone like Adam Lansa can't know how many armed people are in a given school or where they are. This makes planning an attack incredibly difficult.
    Glad to see the NRA's asinine lone armed teacher has been dropped in here. That idea was beyond bad.

    But the standard firearms training for law enforcement doesn't involve engaging active shooters, it trains on simple targets, this is why SWAT is an advanced course with far more expensive training methods. It is not cost effective to attempt to train every Rookie to be a school corridor sweeper while in the academy.

    It isn't a volunteer armed citizen will purposefully aim at a child but will have a very cluttered engagement area with the strong possibility of children moving in front of and behind the bad guy. (this is why many SWAT teams use some form of carbine/MP5/, not because of any distance requirement but the much longer sight plane.)

    The problem as I see it if these Sentinels are to be trained to the level of unpaid volunteer Reserve Officers they will have to pass a more intense backround check, beyond simple criminal past. The former Assist Chief of the Lawton PD told me a few years ago it wasn't the criminal back round that rejected most recruits to the force- it was the psych eval that cuts most recruits loose. Posturing politicians may be comfortable putting armed people in schools, but professionals should demand at least the same level of volunteer the academy does.

    The problem will be the same that local police departments face, enough qualified people who will foot a rather steep bill to train to a level of competence beyond CCW or rookie cop. There is a reason most departments don't have their patrol officers rush into schools as they arrive, going in from different directions and in a piecemeal fashion is not a recipe for success.

    So that leads us to the volunteers and their need to be able to do more than shoot. To not form a circular firing squad coz unless the badguy hits while all the armed teachers are in the break room they will be scattered around the school's grounds. The ability to move in a way so they don't just rush blindly to the sound of fire and add to the body count AND be able to hit a body armored shooter in the head after running and with all that fear/anger adrenaline pumping through their bodies- that takes a bit more training than what rookie cops get- hence that is why SWATT is an elite unit.

    I'd say the difficulty many PDs have getting Sentinels for traffic/school zone/funeral escort/admin work the odds of there being ANY sort of viable concealed carry teacher REACT Force that arms, trains and then continues to practice is pretty poor.

    Oh and how does a bad guy know who is armed in the school- any adult you see you put down, especially those not running away. You can shoot kids at your leisure afterwards.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Glad to see the NRA's asinine lone armed teacher has been dropped in here. That idea was beyond bad.

    But the standard firearms training for law enforcement doesn't involve engaging active shooters, it trains on simple targets, this is why SWAT is an advanced course with far more expensive training methods. It is not cost effective to attempt to train every Rookie to be a school corridor sweeper while in the academy.
    An active shooter in a school is always a bad situation. There is no one-size-fits-all easy button answer. There are no guarantees. Neither cops nor Sentinels are intended to be a solution to every conceivable scenario, and we realize that. Much like a condom doesn't guarantee 100% safety against STDs or pregnancies, it's still very effective the majority of the time.

    A Sentinel would be effective against a dog with rabies while on a field trip. A Sentinel would be effective in a Sandy-Hook style shooting, where the staff has advanced warning of a shooter and opportunity from the office, through the hall, and finally the teacher in the classroom. A Sentinel can be effective against an armed man entering a bus to kidnap handy-capped children and hide in a bunker for a week. A Sentinel cannot be effective against a Columbine type shooting where extensive planning, booby-traps and bombs are employed. Sentinels would not be effective against organised gang or terrorist violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    It isn't a volunteer armed citizen will purposefully aim at a child but will have a very cluttered engagement area with the strong possibility of children moving in front of and behind the bad guy. (this is why many SWAT teams use some form of carbine/MP5/, not because of any distance requirement but the much longer sight plane.)
    Sometimes the best option is to not fire at all, yes, and that is part of the firearms course.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    The problem as I see it if these Sentinels are to be trained to the level of unpaid volunteer Reserve Officers they will have to pass a more intense backround check, beyond simple criminal past. The former Assist Chief of the Lawton PD told me a few years ago it wasn't the criminal back round that rejected most recruits to the force- it was the psych eval that cuts most recruits loose. Posturing politicians may be comfortable putting armed people in schools, but professionals should demand at least the same level of volunteer the academy does.
    Our school employees already have to do this as part of the normal hiring process.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    The problem will be the same that local police departments face, enough qualified people who will foot a rather steep bill to train to a level of competence beyond CCW or rookie cop. There is a reason most departments don't have their patrol officers rush into schools as they arrive, going in from different directions and in a piecemeal fashion is not a recipe for success.
    Sentinels are not police and are not called to respond to an incident. We have police for that. Sentinels are normal employees (building maintenance, lunch cooks, bus drivers, etc) who would already be there performing their job should an incident occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    So that leads us to the volunteers and their need to be able to do more than shoot. To not form a circular firing squad coz unless the badguy hits while all the armed teachers are in the break room they will be scattered around the school's grounds. The ability to move in a way so they don't just rush blindly to the sound of fire and add to the body count AND be able to hit a body armored shooter in the head after running and with all that fear/anger adrenaline pumping through their bodies- that takes a bit more training than what rookie cops get- hence that is why SWATT is an elite unit.
    Sentinels are not superheros and do not try to save the day. Sentinels are normal employees who would already be in harms way.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I'd say the difficulty many PDs have getting Sentinels for traffic/school zone/funeral escort/admin work the odds of there being ANY sort of viable concealed carry teacher REACT Force that arms, trains and then continues to practice is pretty poor.
    That sentence does not make any sense. Please re-word it.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Oh and how does a bad guy know who is armed in the school- any adult you see you put down, especially those not running away. You can shoot kids at your leisure afterwards.
    The bad guy would not likely know who was or was not armed before hand. Like Sandy Hook, all SD schools have reinforced doors which are locked when school begins. Were an Adam Lansa wana-be shoot through a door to gain access to the school, he would be met with lethal force. Yes, an active shooter could simply fire on any adult they see, that's why we want all adults to have the option to be armed.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Since this thread focuses on how guns play a part in public safety, it's easy to forget that the use of firearms is only a small part of the over-all effort. SD places most of it's safety-oriented money into preventing juvenile crime, treating mental illness, our very succesfull Resource Officer program, training staff for any kind of emergency, physical barrier such as locked sturdy doors, and other programs and policies.

    Sentinels are only a small part of the bigger picture.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Maybe they ought to make them like sky marshalls, hidden among the school employees.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's not what you said
    That's exactly what I said. Follow the line of the conversation.

    Me: And kids know. Kids find out things in ways I couldn't even describe. Whether it's a teacher was a stripper before the child was even born, or whether a teacher has a homosexual partner or whether a teacher is carrying a firearm, children know.
    You: So really, everything affects your relationship with every child. I'm not seeing anything unique about guns here. Do you want to just ban every negative thing a child could ever learn about the teacher?
    Me: I can control whether or not a gun is in my classroom. I cannot control if another teacher was a stripper or if a fellow teacher is a homosexual. I can, however, control whether or not a gun is in my classroom.

    We were not discussing gun control, we were discussing whether we arm teachers and the change it would cause to the relationship dynamic. You and/or others claimed the students wouldn't know, and I said they would, citing real life examples from my own experiences. You then engaged in hyperbole, asking if we should just ban every negative thing, and I responded by saying I can't help another teacher as a stripper or homosexual, but I can control whether there is a gun in my classroom, and thus, can control that element of the teacher/student relationship.

    That's exactly what I said. The rest of your post now becomes moot, once this part of your post is now proven false.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    That's exactly what I said. Follow the line of the conversation.

    Me: And kids know. Kids find out things in ways I couldn't even describe. Whether it's a teacher was a stripper before the child was even born, or whether a teacher has a homosexual partner or whether a teacher is carrying a firearm, children know.
    You: So really, everything affects your relationship with every child. I'm not seeing anything unique about guns here. Do you want to just ban every negative thing a child could ever learn about the teacher?
    Me: I can control whether or not a gun is in my classroom. I cannot control if another teacher was a stripper or if a fellow teacher is a homosexual. I can, however, control whether or not a gun is in my classroom.

    We were not discussing gun control, we were discussing whether we arm teachers and the change it would cause to the relationship dynamic. You and/or others claimed the students wouldn't know, and I said they would, citing real life examples from my own experiences. You then engaged in hyperbole, asking if we should just ban every negative thing, and I responded by saying I can't help another teacher as a stripper or homosexual, but I can control whether there is a gun in my classroom, and thus, can control that element of the teacher/student relationship.

    That's exactly what I said. The rest of your post now becomes moot, once this part of your post is now proven false.
    Post #239 I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    How would the student even know you were armed in the first place for it to be an issue?
    ...because I have quite a lot of experience carrying a gun in places which may not want me to have a gun (but is still legal) and not getting 'made'. I did not say the students would not know. I asked how they would know. You responded by saying that students tend to find out many things the teacher never intended, and I accepted that.

    If someone else stated 'students would never know', I'm not responsible for that claim.

    My point that you cannot control rather or not there is a gun in your classroom remains. You can only control rather or not you bring a gun into your classroom, but you cannot make that decision for others.
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-05-13 at 07:23 PM.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Post #239 I said:

    ...because I have quite a lot of experience carrying a gun in places which may not want me to have a gun (but is still legal) and not getting 'made'. I did not say the students would not know. I asked how they would know. You responded by saying that students tend to find out many things the teacher never intended, and I accepted that.

    If someone else stated 'students would never know', I'm not responsible for that claim.
    And I specifically said you and/or others, because I did not remember if you made the claim or not.

    My point that you cannot control rather or not there is a gun in your classroom remains.
    Yes, I can. Because we were talking about the relationship between teacher and student, and how a gun changes that. It had nothing to do with a school intruder, only the every day relationship between student and teacher.

    You can only control rather or not you bring a gun into your classroom, but you cannot make that decision for others.
    100% true, but completely unrelated to what we were discussing when I said that. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Still not using the quote code correctly...when you quote someone, their name and the blue 'backtrack' button should appear in every quote box....sloppiness....
    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    And I specifically said you and/or others, because I did not remember if you made the claim or not.
    So you're telling me to "Follow the line of the conversation" while you can't do that yourself.

    I am not responsible for what others say. I am only responsible for what I say and not anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Yes, I can.
    No you can't, and you admit this below....
    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    100% true...
    ...so now you're equivocating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Because we were talking about the relationship between teacher and student, and how a gun changes that. It had nothing to do with a school intruder, only the every day relationship between student and teacher.....but completely unrelated to what we were discussing when I said that. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.
    Well, along that line of discussion, guns aren't seen as a negative out here. A teacher with a gun is no big deal. If you were teaching out here and if you had a gun and if a kid saw it and if that kid gave a **** to ask about it, the kid would probably tell you about the guns they shoot. Most of the kids here come from households with firearms and parents who carry in public all the time. It's not new, there's little to no mystery about guns. Children out here are exposed to guns and exposure to a thing tends to remove fears and stereotypes; which is why people who oppose ssm don't generally know any gay people and people who are indifferent or supportive of ssm generally do know gay people. Same thing.
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-05-13 at 07:52 PM.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Meanwhile their plan already in action to arm Mexican drug cartels at our border seems to have a much different effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'

    Actually the rookie cop gets very little 'refined' firearms training, and working as a team to clear a school of a bad guy. Again is why the SWAT teams exist. It also takes some experience to work a school for a shooter, again is why most SWAT teams don't take rookies. Patrol cops can help by securing the kids once they clear the SWAT team, can secure cleared corridors and set-up a perimeter but they don't lead the charge.

    Lanza didn't shoot his way through a re-enforced door, he shot his way through a glass door. There are a variety of doors that are designed to resist being shot open. They are also used to create an airlock so a perp can enter the holding area but be locked in if the guy doesn't pass the screening. Metal detectors and a stop and rob window for the school administrator sitting at the front door andn you have a far better secured school than a dozen unevenly trained 'sentinels'.

    I don't think some understand the ability of children to know what goes on in a school. The concealed carry teachers are not going to stay a secret for long.

    I don't have a problem with VERY well trained armed guards, but not just semi-trained mish mash of well meaning people.

    I do think one very key advantage any security guard can use is fixing the enemy. Pinning him in the airlock turns the tactical, surprise, numbers elements to the defenders favor.

    no matter how thickly manned a perimeter is one huge advantage the defenders can have is a barrier, like a well constructed barbed wire obstacle that screws up the enemy's surprise, numbers and tactics.

    I see the volunteer concealed carry force as looking far better on paper than in practice. First big obstacle will be qualified candidates who can pass the same requirements a police recruit does to include the mental screen. Next passing the training, I see at least the same wash-out rate as police cadets. Then enough per school to be a factor, I'll agree one is better than none but only because none is none. Then concurrent training to keep the school's team sharp and gain desperately needed experience before the real deal gets trapped in the airlock.

    Anywho my experience leans toward a good barrier instead of a lot more weapons, seems our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan think so as well.

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