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Thread: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's not what you just said.
    I said,

    If it takes a temporary shut of the oil fields, to make sure they know the American people are tired of paying the price for their f***k ups, I'll get a bike, and support that decision.
    You postulated the rest yourself. Regardless, the point stands. Without the threat of shutting down fields by the revocation of permits, the oil industry will have no substantial reason to take safety and clean up seriously. The evidence of that being the current trend of oil spills. There were 9 oil spills, simultaneously, during Hurricane Katrina. Since then, there have 13 since then. From 1990-2000, there were 5 total. Even excluding Hurricane Katrina, that's still double the number of spills, in less then 10 years. Would you not say that is concerning?
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    I'm curious on this one, and first of, your points are entirely valid. However, we have a history in the country of making sure that we learn from accidents and to the best of our ability, try to prevent them in the future. Yet, when it comes to the oil industry, we don't do that. The same exact clean up procedures used to clean up of the Exxon Valdez were used to clean up the spill in the gulf, and neither were executed very effectively. This pipeline, the Pegasus pipeline, was the subject of a fine that Exxon received for not inspecting a stretch of the pipe for 5 years. Exxon had another pipe rupture in 2011, that spilled oil into the yellowstone river, which resulted in the another fine for safety violations.

    My point here, is that if the largest publicly traded oil company, keeps violating safety procedures, and keeps having issues with spills, isn't about time we say, you can't keep drilling until you don't have a plan to keep it as safe as possible?
    I don't know if that would be the appropriate "punishment" but I'd have no objection to upping the penalty for each instance of corporate negligence that reflects a company's lack of new procedures to avoid the same errors twice or more. Some of the problems with oil spills are simply human error and often not the direct fault of the corporate giant but a sub-contractor hired by the corporation, but ultimately the corporation carries the blame - punish them severely if they keep making the same mistakes.

    I believe in personal responsibility and actions have consequences - corporations are no different. Make the people they harmed whole, make them pay punitive damages for the inconvenience and displacement, and penalize them appropriately so they don't do it again.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    RIP Mayflower.

    You were an armpit, but you didn't deserve this. The lake was about all you had going for you. That little community won't recover.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    I said,



    You postulated the rest yourself. Regardless, the point stands. Without the threat of shutting down fields by the revocation of permits, the oil industry will have no substantial reason to take safety and clean up seriously. The evidence of that being the current trend of oil spills. There were 9 oil spills, simultaneously, during Hurricane Katrina. Since then, there have 13 since then. From 1990-2000, there were 5 total. Even excluding Hurricane Katrina, that's still double the number of spills, in less then 10 years. Would you not say that is concerning?
    DOn't blame the oil companies; blame the government for not enforcing the regulations that are already on the books.

    But, when you consider the millions of feet drilled; the tens of thousands of miles of pipeline; the gazillions of barrels of oil that are transported by boat, train, truck and pipeline every year, the track record of the oil and gas industry is better than just about any other industry in the country. The so called, "clean energy" industry is harder on the environment than the oil and gas industry.

    One major spill in the GOM and the treehuggers want to shut everything down, forever. It's a good thing that standard isn't applied to any other industry in the country.

    We know that you don't want to apply that standard to the railroads.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...749052848.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I don't know if that would be the appropriate "punishment" but I'd have no objection to upping the penalty for each instance of corporate negligence that reflects a company's lack of new procedures to avoid the same errors twice or more. Some of the problems with oil spills are simply human error and often not the direct fault of the corporate giant but a sub-contractor hired by the corporation, but ultimately the corporation carries the blame - punish them severely if they keep making the same mistakes.

    I believe in personal responsibility and actions have consequences - corporations are no different. Make the people they harmed whole, make them pay punitive damages for the inconvenience and displacement, and penalize them appropriately so they don't do it again.
    Does that really do the trick though? I mean, that's pretty much the model we have been using for at least the last decade, and spills keep happening. Without a proper clean up and leak prevention plan, the future damage can never be fixed by an amount of money. For instance, the wetlands in the gulf. Wetlands act as a cushion during hurricanes. They absorb the brunt of the storm, and cause the severity of the storm to decrease. Obviously, this depends on the size of the storm, but the point is the long term effects of the oil that spread into those same wetlands. How do you penalize a company for the future depletion of the wetlands, and the future danger the people of coastal towns will be in because of that depletion?

    I'm not saying I disagree with you, I just think the severity of these mistakes should carry a consequence other then just a monetary value. The oil industry is the most profitable industry in the world, and the US subsidises it on top of that. Companies are paying people theses damages with tax payer dollars, lol. It just doesn't seem like that has the same kind of impact as outright threatening to revoke their permits to drill if they don't get it together.
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    RIP Mayflower.

    You were an armpit, but you didn't deserve this. The lake was about all you had going for you. That little community won't recover.
    That's a little doomsday'ish, don't you think??
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    DOn't blame the oil companies; blame the government for not enforcing the regulations that are already on the books.

    But, when you consider the millions of feet drilled; the tens of thousands of miles of pipeline; the gazillions of barrels of oil that are transported by boat, train, truck and pipeline every year, the track record of the oil and gas industry is better than just about any other industry in the country. The so called, "clean energy" industry is harder on the environment than the oil and gas industry.

    One major spill in the GOM and the treehuggers want to shut everything down, forever. It's a good thing that standard isn't applied to any other industry in the country.

    We know that you don't want to apply that standard to the railroads.

    Review & Outlook: A Tale of Two Oil Spills - WSJ.com
    You are 100% assuming what my opinions are, regardless of what I actually said. You may be right about the 'GOM and the treehuggers', but that's not me, and that's not what I said. The powers of the regulatory bodies are extremely limited and stretched increadibly thin. It was widely reported in 2010, that at the time of the Deepwater Horizon spill, there were 55 inspectors, 90 drilling rigs and 3,500 drilling platforms that required regular inspection. You are right that things are broken within the regulatory world, the numerous scandals surrounding the MMS are evidence of that. However, it's two fold. The regulatory bodies need to be held accountable for their inaction, but the oil companies need to feel the sting of their failures as well. Paying fines just doesn't cut it anymore.

    Also, it's not 1 major spill that has caused this kind of concern. It's 22 spills in less then 10 years. I will completely admit that actual amount of oil being spilled as decreased over the last 20 years, but the damage is equally severe. It's irresponsible to chalk it up to isolated incidents that no one could have seen coming. How many leaks do rigs need to have before it become predictable, and someone does something to stop it for happening continueously?
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    You are 100% assuming what my opinions are, regardless of what I actually said. You may be right about the 'GOM and the treehuggers', but that's not me, and that's not what I said. The powers of the regulatory bodies are extremely limited and stretched increadibly thin. It was widely reported in 2010, that at the time of the Deepwater Horizon spill, there were 55 inspectors, 90 drilling rigs and 3,500 drilling platforms that required regular inspection. You are right that things are broken within the regulatory world, the numerous scandals surrounding the MMS are evidence of that. However, it's two fold. The regulatory bodies need to be held accountable for their inaction, but the oil companies need to feel the sting of their failures as well. Paying fines just doesn't cut it anymore.

    Also, it's not 1 major spill that has caused this kind of concern. It's 22 spills in less then 10 years. I will completely admit that actual amount of oil being spilled as decreased over the last 20 years, but the damage is equally severe. It's irresponsible to chalk it up to isolated incidents that no one could have seen coming. How many leaks do rigs need to have before it become predictable, and someone does something to stop it for happening continueously?
    When an oil and gas company screws up, you're calling for their heads. When a railroad company screws up, you're hiding among the crickets. Why is that?

    A train derailment in Minnesota spilled 30,000 gallons of oil and no one is screaming for railroad heads on a plate. Is it because the outrage has more to do with the hatred for oil companies, in general? Is it because railroads are the more PC industry among the treehuggers now days? Is it because railroads are unionized and unions don't exist in the oil and gas industry?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    DOn't blame the oil companies; blame the government for not enforcing the regulations that are already on the books.
    Right. Don't blame the crook, blame the police for not catching them.

    What a partisan hack!

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    Right. Don't blame the crook, blame the police for not catching them.

    What a partisan hack!
    Well, if government regulators aren't enforcing government regulations, they're as much at fault as anyone else. It's called, "corruption".

    Are you one of the folks that swears up-n-down that Bush knowingly lied about WMD's in Iraq? Because, if you are...
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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