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Thread: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    It's from here



    Just a gut feeling and a long line of historical evidence.
    Scope and scale are quite different. The two spills aren't even comparable. Offshore spill clean up is absurdly more expensive than land clean up. The cost of this cleanup with be solely paid for by Exxon and those with valid claims will be reimbursed. Current law requires the responsible party to fully fund the remediation (clean up) and all claims up to $75 million. There is no way that claims in this spill will exceed that.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    This is really disgusting. How much more ecosystem has to be permanently trashed, and how many more people's lives must be ruined, before we start seriously investing in green energy? It's now affecting people's private properties too. Fracking is just as bad.
    Feel free to invest all you want. If you don't like oil, don't buy it.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Can you explain to me the one question I have with the keystone pipeline? My question is why the hell does it have to run to texas? Can't we make the refineries in a state on the Canadian border? If there is a technical reason I would love to hear it. If it is because texas bribed the most people to get the oil there I am pretty sure we can stop it at north Dakota.
    Its simple infrastructure. The St. Lawrence Seaway (how ships get out of the lakes) has ship size limit. It has a 26' draft restriction as well as a 740' length restriction which pretty much eliminates the vast majority of modern tankers. Technical enough for you?

    Your average tanker has well over a 40' draft and usually run about 900'.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishstyx View Post
    Its simple infrastructure. The St. Lawrence Seaway (how ships get out of the lakes) has ship size limit. It has a 26' draft restriction as well as a 740' length restriction which pretty much eliminates the vast majority of modern tankers. Technical enough for you?

    Your average tanker has well over a 40' draft and usually run about 900'.
    Or you could just load the gasoline into tanker trucks and it could be anywhere in the US within a couple of days just like they do in texas. You really didn't think gasoline got to the middle of nebraska by ocean liner did you? Sorry, that was a little bit of a trap for a person who thought things only half way through. At least you got halfway.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Can you explain to me the one question I have with the keystone pipeline? My question is why the hell does it have to run to texas? Can't we make the refineries in a state on the Canadian border? If there is a technical reason I would love to hear it. If it is because texas bribed the most people to get the oil there I am pretty sure we can stop it at north Dakota.
    Actually, the gasoline gets to nebraska by pipeline, not tanker trucks. The US pipeline system isn't solely crude oil. There are three pipeline categories, crude, natural gas and product (refined petroleum products). In fact, two of those product lines go to Omaha, NE. Even in Texas, refined petroleum products are not solely transported by tanker trucks. They utilize a pipeline system there too...within the state. Those fuel trucks you see driving on the streets are generally short haul transporters from a local storage facility to the gas stations.

    Furthermore, do you know how much gasoline would be per gallon if we transported it solely by trucks? Talk about carbon footprint! Before you accuse someone of thinking only "halfway," perhaps you should try learning a little about the topic yourself.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    i hear this a lot, but what is the actual cost of a refinery to build? .

    Marathon completes $3.9 billion expansion in Garyville | NOLA.com

    3.9 billion to build part of a refinery. This price reflects building were permits, pipeline, logistics, storage tanks, docks, emergency response, electrical power, utility systems, and contract service support network were already in place.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    How does that work, anyway? Thinking about that logic i would have to wonder how the hell it would be more profitable for them to have more pipeline that needs to be maintained, a closer manufacturing point to the highly populated oil consuming northeast, and eliminating the expenditures on actually shipping oil thousands of miles out of the way to refine it and ship it back. I am glad they told you it would be cheaper to build a pipeline across the US, but that is a really bad excuse. I cannot even imagine that in the short run it would be cheaper to build a thousand or so miles of pipeline that needs to be maintained just to avoid the cost of new refineries more local. The only place i see it being better for conomically is texas, and perhaps it helps an individual oil company over certain others.

    But please do show me the costs of new refineries as opposed to the costs of the pipeline, and if you want some extra credit the costs of shipping the finished product from the texas coast as opposed from the northeast in comparison with a multiple distribution point model where the northeast is supplied by the northeast refineries while texas would supply southern areas. Sorry, if you want to make the claim please do provide some support for it aside from the oil companies say so.
    In addition to the problems already list in this thread.

    Asphalt. the crude coming out of Canada is heavy (high asphalt content). Northern refineries struggle with asphalt logistics in the winter. No one paves roads in the winter up north. That leaves a northern refineries with few options: Coke the asphalt, turn it into a coal like substance (if they can afford the process unit), store it until summer (if they have the tank capacity), sell the asphalt at deep discounts and barge/truck it south or change the crude feed slate to lighter crude, which consequently would have to be piped in.

    Logistics. If you take in consideration the 3-2-1 crack spread, A 500,000 barrel/day refinery would make 300K of gasoline and 200k of fuel oil approximately. A large gas tanker holds 12000 gallons of gasoline. 300000 x 42/12000 = 1050 gas and 700 fuel oil (diesel/kerosene) trucks would have to be loaded everyday without interruption. That would be one impressive loading rack and highway system.

    Supply and Demand. America is already a net exporter of refined oil products. If a company took on the billions of expense to build a new refinery they would be selling there products into a saturated market. From jump street a new refinery would be discounting products or shipping into international markets. The latter options would take yet another pipeline.

    A new refinery with the latest and greatest technology, could enter the market, sell cheap (a win for the customer) and stay profitable. Problem is small marginal refineries might get pushed out of business. It makes sense instead of starting from scratch to just buy an old marginal refinery with permits, logistics, etc... already in place and upgrade/expand it.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed | Reuters



    I feel really sorry for the people whose properties are now ruined by spilled crude.

    There is a post going around Facebook that was started by a local family which sheds more light on this:



    This is really disgusting. How much more ecosystem has to be permanently trashed, and how many more people's lives must be ruined, before we start seriously investing in green energy? It's now affecting people's private properties too. Fracking is just as bad.

    It's dirty energy at high cost.
    You know where that oil originated. Right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Can you explain to me the one question I have with the keystone pipeline? My question is why the hell does it have to run to texas? Can't we make the refineries in a state on the Canadian border? If there is a technical reason I would love to hear it. If it is because texas bribed the most people to get the oil there I am pretty sure we can stop it at north Dakota.
    How is the refined product going to be distributed? It can't stay at the Candadian border.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exxon cleans up Arkansas oil spill; Keystone plan assailed

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    I can answer parts of the question, but you likely will not like the answer.
    #1 Because of Environmental regulation, very few new refineries have been built in the last 30 years.
    #2 The expertise to refine specialty oil, is already in Texas.
    #3 The infrastructure for the refined products, are already in Texas.
    #4 If it could be done easily up north, the Canadians would be doing it, and selling us refined product.
    The eco-nazis in Canada have made it impossible to build new refineries, hence--as you pointed out--if it was that simple, the Canadians would already be doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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