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Thread: Amanda Knox retrial...

  1. #21
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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    I wonder how Italy's development of their armed UAV's (drones) are coming along ?

    If Obama can do it, so can Italy.

    Obama was warned four years ago, be careful how you use these Predator drones, your writing the laws on how other nations can use armed UAV's (drones) over sovereign territory and take out wanted individuals.
    ummm, i think you are posting in the wrong topic.

    Your drone topic is here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-par...as-drones.html

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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    That way they get to pretend they did something, and pretend the US is the bad guy for protecting her, while never making any real effort to get her back.
    What precisely would you suggest?

    An Italian invasion of America?

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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopan017 View Post
    Just leave her alone already.
    Hmm. Let me think.

    No.

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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Italy acquitted her so they could look like the good guy to other countries. They then overturned her acquittal so they would look good to Italians.

    Its all politics.

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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    I have heard "legal experts" say that we would honor an extradition request.

    I have heard other "legal experts" say that we would not, based on our double-jeopardy. Supposedly, extradition treaties allow for this. It is a common reason why many countries that we do have treaties with will refuse to extradite someone to us if the death penalty is a possibility. Happens all the time, and the political world rolls along just fine.

    If it were me, I'd NEVER go back voluntarily. I'd fight it tooth and nail. If nothing else, it can be tied up in court for years.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  6. #26
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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Not wrong, you are trying to explain to a Dutch person, with a not dissimilar system as Italy has how appeals and higher appeals go and failing miserably.

    In the Netherlands and Italy you can be tried and both the suspect and the prosecution (if they disagree with the result of the trial in verdict or punishment given) they can appeal the trial and the same case will be redone in a higher court in which both the prosecution and the suspect can make their case for acquittal or conviction. This is not a new trial/double jeopardy but the same case just in a higher court.

    In the Netherlands and in Italy you can appeal your court case and bump it to a higher court, this is not double jeopardy because no new case if filed with the court hence no double jeopardy. It maybe different in the US but in the Netherlands and from what I know a verdict is final only if the entire appeals process have been run through or when no appeal is called for within the time frame within the appeal can be requested.

    For example, in a murder case with case number 1001 (armed robbery where a bank employee is killed) a suspect is found guilty for manslaughter and robbery and sentenced to 12 years. The DA is of the opinion that their evidence warranted a conviction for murder and the 20 years they asked for and within the time period allowed for this (normally one waits until the written justification of the verdict has been filed with the court before doing so) the DA appeals.

    Then the same case 1001 will be re-heard by a higher court, this time the court does agree with the DA and sentences the suspect to 18 years in jail. This time the suspect who was convicted disagrees and asks for review (cassatie in Dutch) by the highest court in the Netherlands. Only if this higher court agrees that the sentence is fair and just (they do not look at the evidence itself but at the process and the way the law was interpreted by the higher court) the case if done and the verdict final. But, for arguments sake the highest court finds that the lower court did not interpret the law correctly, they then vacate the sentence of 18 years and send the case back to the lower court. This time the trial of case 1001 ends in a the court this time finding manslaughter with aggravating circumstances and sentences the suspect again to 18 years. The suspect again appeals within the time period allowed for this and this time the supreme court decides that the court used the correct laws and descriptions to convict and the case if final.

    At that moment and that moment alone the case with case number 1001 is over.


    Now the other way around, in a murder case with case number 1002 (child kidnapping, rape and murder) a suspect is found guilty of child abduction, rape and murder and is sentenced to 18 years plus TBS (mental incarceration until the court is convinced that the mental disease that has lead to the suspect doing this crime is found to be cured). The DA is a happy camper and decides he will not appeal, he asked for 20 years plus TBS but can live with the 18 years given. This time the suspect appeals within the time allowed for appealing because he does not want to be sentenced to TBS (which could keep him in jail for life) and in a higher court is again found guilty and they again convict to 18 years and TBS. The suspect however says he is not crazy and does not want TBS on top of his 18 years in jail.

    The supreme court reviews the case and disagrees with the suspect and says that the TBS sentence is upheld.

    At that moment and that moment alone the case with case number 1002 is over.

    That is how our and the Italian legal system works, it may not be your legal system but as before, this is still not a case of double jeopardy because the original case is still running.
    Double jeapordy is trying a person for the same crime after a person has been found innocent or has been acquitted. Double jeapordy is not dependent on case numbers. The moment someone is found innocent or is acquitted they may never be brought to court for the same crime.

    The way that you have explained your system, and Italy's, shows that you have a system which is designed to get a person convicted and keep them convicted unless by some miracle they make it to the very highest court and THEY find the person innocent. Assuming of course the highest court doesn't find out that the lower court made some mistake in interpreting (which can be very subjective) law. In otherwords your court cases are all about the law and not about the innocense or guilt of a person.

    I admit that your "double jeapordy" may have a different definition. But you will never convince me that it is a correct definition because frankly that definition just leads to people that were found innocent going back to prison for something that they were considered innocent of.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Double jeapordy is trying a person for the same crime after a person has been found innocent or has been acquitted. Double jeapordy is not dependent on case numbers. The moment someone is found innocent or is acquitted they may never be brought to court for the same crime.

    The way that you have explained your system, and Italy's, shows that you have a system which is designed to get a person convicted and keep them convicted unless by some miracle they make it to the very highest court and THEY find the person innocent. Assuming of course the highest court doesn't find out that the lower court made some mistake in interpreting (which can be very subjective) law. In otherwords your court cases are all about the law and not about the innocense or guilt of a person.

    I admit that your "double jeapordy" may have a different definition. But you will never convince me that it is a correct definition because frankly that definition just leads to people that were found innocent going back to prison for something that they were considered innocent of.
    There is also double jeopardy in the Netherlands, but a suspect is only guilty or innocent if all the appeals have been made final.

    And it is not designed for finding people guilty or innocent but to get justice. If a case is blatant injustice in the USA by freeing someone of whom it is almost certain that he is guilty, than the police and the prosecution can not appeal the verdict and the killer (for example OJ Simpson). And the other way around is also possible, when a suspect is found guilty even though he is innocent, than he cannot appeal that verdict and have the injustice overthrown by an appeal.

    Just because you think law is supposed to work in one way does not mean that the entire world will see it that way. I think a system in which both the prosecution and the suspect can appeal a verdict they find violates their feeling of justice is far superior than cases where a system that does not allow appeals.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

  8. #28
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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    There is also double jeopardy in the Netherlands, but a suspect is only guilty or innocent if all the appeals have been made final.

    And it is not designed for finding people guilty or innocent but to get justice. If a case is blatant injustice in the USA by freeing someone of whom it is almost certain that he is guilty, than the police and the prosecution can not appeal the verdict and the killer (for example OJ Simpson). And the other way around is also possible, when a suspect is found guilty even though he is innocent, than he cannot appeal that verdict and have the injustice overthrown by an appeal.

    Just because you think law is supposed to work in one way does not mean that the entire world will see it that way. I think a system in which both the prosecution and the suspect can appeal a verdict they find violates their feeling of justice is far superior than cases where a system that does not allow appeals.
    Finding "justice"? Sorry but continueally hounding somone that has been found innocent is not "finding justice". I would rather have 10 guilty people be let free than to have 1 innocent person in prison.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    What precisely would you suggest?

    An Italian invasion of America?
    If you actually understood what I wrote you would realize i would more likely be for someone dressing up like batman and delivering her like a chinese businessman to the doorsteps of the italian commissioner gordon. That way Italy can screw up retrying her again and we can all have a good laugh. PASTA!

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    Re: Amanda Knox retrial...

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    If you actually understood what I wrote you would realize i would more likely be for someone dressing up like batman and delivering her like a chinese businessman to the doorsteps of the italian commissioner gordon. That way Italy can screw up retrying her again and we can all have a good laugh. PASTA!
    That would pwn.

    See, now I have something to hope for.

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