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5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

So what?

Who are you to deny their right to marry who they want?

Ahh, so the crux of your issue is that you foolishly believe the government doesn't have the ability to discriminate against people.

It absolutely does, it just meet a certain amount of legal muster under the Equal Protection Clause. Essentially, depending on the basis of the discrimination....race, gender, age, religion, sexuality, etc...the government must meet certain requirements in terms of showing what it's interest is in the discrimination and why the discrimination is necessary to persue that interest.

Gender is a middle tier category, and a strong argument can be made marriage laws currently discriminate based on gender. Arguments that can't be made for polygamy.

Even going to sexuality, which is a lower teir, it would still be different to a point than polygamy as sexuality is considered classification qualifying for the more strict lower teir option of a "second order rational basis test". So EVEN if you presented the exact same arguments for polyamy as you do gay marriage, it could still legally result in a different ruling because the burden of responsability on the government is higher in one case than the other.

Finally, that doesn't touch on the fact that htere are numerous issues with polygamy on top of the ones that it shares with same sex marriage, the least of which is the multitude of issues it causes with contract law.
 
Thats true, in so much that heterosexuals have no right to refuse changing the definition at the exclusion of other sexual interest groups as well.

No one really has a "right" to change or refuse to change a definition....though they do have a right to make their case one way or another, which is what's happening.

So what gives gays the right to refuse a bisexual individual's right to change the definition of marriage is to fit what they want then?

10 years ago the concept of gay marrying was inconceivable. Precedence matters. If people want to define what the definition of marriage is at a state level and vote on it, fine put it up for a vote. The Founders never would have conceived of gay marriage. It was alien to them. Throughout history, gay marriage has never been a societal norm. Sure you can find a snippet here or there, (someone actually used Nero with a straight face earlier) but the concept of 2 men marrying has never been thought of on the same relevant plane of existence as "marriage" as it's been known throughout the history of mankind. You know, where a man and a woman come together to procreate and raise a family. Their sexual organs serve a purpose when joined. Propagation of the species. Marriage is an institution that brings the opposite sexes together. It has economic and social value.

Gay marriage is really about the destruction of the traditional family unit. It's one of the main objectives of cultural marxists.
 
Ahh, so the crux of your issue is that you foolishly believe the government doesn't have the ability to discriminate against people.

It absolutely does, it just meet a certain amount of legal muster under the Equal Protection Clause. Essentially, depending on the basis of the discrimination....race, gender, age, religion, sexuality, etc...the government must meet certain requirements in terms of showing what it's interest is in the discrimination and why the discrimination is necessary to persue that interest.

Gender is a middle tier category, and a strong argument can be made marriage laws currently discriminate based on gender. Arguments that can't be made for polygamy.

Even going to sexuality, which is a lower teir, it would still be different to a point than polygamy as sexuality is considered classification qualifying for the more strict lower teir option of a "second order rational basis test". So EVEN if you presented the exact same arguments for polyamy as you do gay marriage, it could still legally result in a different ruling because the burden of responsability on the government is higher in one case than the other.

Finally, that doesn't touch on the fact that htere are numerous issues with polygamy on top of the ones that it shares with same sex marriage, the least of which is the multitude of issues it causes with contract law.

The 14th amendment never applied to sexual behavior

Trying to equate the two is racist

What gives gays the special right to change what the definition of marriage is over any other special sexual interest group. Bisexuals want to marry who they love too. Groups of people want to marry. Sisters marrying brothers. Where does it stop? Why are only gays allowed to marry the same sex? That's not fair.

Why can't the states vote and decide what they want the definition of marriage to be?
 
IMHO, Prop 8 was an act of 70% of the voters of California and the Fed courts should never have become involved. Less than 2% of Californians are trying to overturn the will of the majority. Is this what this nation has become?
And that is what the real topic is, not ssm. Ssm is just the object, not the subject.
 
Ahh, so the crux of your issue is that you foolishly believe the government doesn't have the ability to discriminate against people.

It absolutely does, it just meet a certain amount of legal muster under the Equal Protection Clause. Essentially, depending on the basis of the discrimination....race, gender, age, religion, sexuality, etc...the government must meet certain requirements in terms of showing what it's interest is in the discrimination and why the discrimination is necessary to persue that interest.

Gender is a middle tier category, and a strong argument can be made marriage laws currently discriminate based on gender. Arguments that can't be made for polygamy.

Even going to sexuality, which is a lower teir, it would still be different to a point than polygamy as sexuality is considered classification qualifying for the more strict lower teir option of a "second order rational basis test". So EVEN if you presented the exact same arguments for polyamy as you do gay marriage, it could still legally result in a different ruling because the burden of responsability on the government is higher in one case than the other.

Finally, that doesn't touch on the fact that htere are numerous issues with polygamy on top of the ones that it shares with same sex marriage, the least of which is the multitude of issues it causes with contract law.

I have been really busy the last few days, and have not had a chance to read the whole of the arguments made yesterday and today, only summaries. However, it was my understanding that the justices did not seem sold on the gender discrimination argument. The two most likely outcomes of yesterdays arguments would be no standing/no decision, which would result in prop 8 being overturned but no real answer on any of the big issues. The most likely result of today's arguments would be ruling DOMA unconstitutional based on a states right to define marriage. However, I base that on reading summaries, mostly at SCOTUSBlog, so consider the source.
 
Not at all. An abstinent man who never engages in physical activites with anyone, but who is attracted to other men and not to women, would be gay despite any "behavior" not being exhibited.
Maybe in some "if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it" philosophical sense, but not in the real world.
 
Gay sex can't procreate. They don't spawn new taxpayers.

Not all straight couples can either. Should the marriages of infertile people be nullified?

Post-menopausal women cannot procreate. Should we put an upper age limit on marriage for women?
 
Maybe in some "if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it" philosophical sense, but not in the real world.

Actually, by definition he is completely correct. Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality

Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of one’s own sex), and bisexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to both men and women). This range of behaviors and attractions has been described in various cultures and nations throughout the world. Many cultures use identity labels to describe people who express these attractions. In the United States the most frequent labels are lesbians (women attracted to women), gay men (men attracted to men), and bisexual people (men or women attracted to both sexes). However, some people may use different labels or none at all.
 
So what gives gays the right to refuse a bisexual individual's right to change the definition of marriage is to fit what they want then?

They don't have a "right" to refuse it....any more than heterosexuals have a "right" to refuse gays...or any more than gys have a "right" to have it changed. No one has a "right" to a DEFINITION being any particular fashion. So your question is idiotic to begin with as it's very premise is illogical.

10 years ago the concept of gay marrying was inconceivable.

Which is irrelevant to now. You don't seemingly understand or know what "precedence" means. 13 years ago many of the portinos of the PATRIOT Act that have been upheld would've been inconcievable to be implimented or viewed as constitutional. Twenty years ago the notion of needing to worry about charging underage kids with child pornography due to sending their boyfriend a naked picture was inconcievable due to the logistics of how it could be done. 65 years ago the notion of a woman serving in the military was blasphemous. 50 years ago the thought of a black and white couple marrying in the south was inconcievable. What is "inconcievable" in the past is not a basis for a strong and useful argument on how to function within the present.

The founders never would've concieved of gay marriage. They also never would've concieved of an Air Force, Cyber Security, and the world wide web. This is why the Founders laid forth a framework and foundation for the country to function on going forward...because htere's an understanding that they could not hope to know what 100 or 200 or 500 years in the future would bring, so they sought to create a document that would hopefully be both limiting in terms of the governments scope while adaptable to new realities.

Now, do I disagree with the notion of Marriage being some absolute constitutional right? Yes. HOWEVER, unlike some other conservatives, I understand as well that the SCOTUS was established by that very same constitution. As such, I generally function from a mindset of reality. The reality is that until such time that the decision regarding marriage as a federall protected right is overturned, that it IS a right protected by the constitution. And as such, rulings and laws in the future need to adhere to that decision. To not do so it completely invalidate our legal system and the constitution itself as it basically proclaims that the system in place should be replaced with egotistical anarchy.

Would my preference be to over turn the precedence that marriage is a federally protected right, allowing individual states to govern it largely because it's simply yet another thing I don't believe the federal government needs to be involved in? Absolutely. But, until that happens, then subsiquent law relating to it MUST adhere to that ruling because THAT'S how it constitutionally works.

As to your paranoid conspiracy theorist tin foil rant at the end, save your breath typing that **** to me because I'm not going to gift you the benefit of any further response to such trash.

Precedence matters. If people want to define what the definition of marriage is at a state level and vote on it, fine put it up for a vote. The Founders never would have conceived of gay marriage. It was alien to them. Throughout history, gay marriage has never been a societal norm. Sure you can find a snippet here or there, (someone actually used Nero with a straight face earlier) but the concept of 2 men marrying has never been thought of on the same relevant plane of existence as "marriage" as it's been known throughout the history of mankind. You know, where a man and a woman come together to procreate and raise a family. Their sexual organs serve a purpose when joined. Propagation of the species. Marriage is an institution that brings the opposite sexes together. It has economic and social value.

Gay marriage is really about the destruction of the traditional family unit. It's one of the main objectives of cultural marxists.[/QUOTE]
 
The 14th amendment never applied to sexual behavior

Actually, it has applied numerous times to sexuality.

Now, you could claim at its inception it was'nt the intent. And that may be right...but tha'ts irrelevant AND is not necessarily fact but rather simply your opinion. In reality, if they wished it to singularly apply to race then it would've singularly stated race. It does not.

Trying to equate the two is racist

I'm sorry, bull**** attempts at pulling the race card are something I laugh and roll my eyes at regardless of the political affiliation of the person so desperate as to pull it.

As to the rest, you clearly show a refusal to actually read what other people have stated becuase I've addressed yoru idiotic question NUMEROUS times. Actually READ what other people write, and then respond...it'll actually get you much farther.
 
Actually, by definition he is completely correct.
Maybe in some "if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it" philosophical sense, but not in the real world.
 
Maybe in some "if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it" philosophical sense, but not in the real world.

So in such case, virgin priests who have never touched a woman and enter the priest hood, swearing the celibacy and never touching a woman in an intimate way for the rest of their life....or to flip the gender, a nun in the same circumstance....those individual would not be Heterosexuals because sexual orientation is defined by physical actions, not attraction?

Please, tell me then...what would such a Nun or Priest be. Also, don't tell me that those don't "exist" in the real world as it was a path a high school friend took.
 
So in such case, virgin priests who have never touched a woman and enter the priest hood, swearing the celibacy and never touching a woman in an intimate way for the rest of their life....or to flip the gender, a nun in the same circumstance....those individual would not be Heterosexuals because sexual orientation is defined by physical actions, not attraction?

Please, tell me then...what would such a Nun or Priest be. Also, don't tell me that those don't "exist" in the real world as it was a path a high school friend took.

You are what you eat. :mrgreen:

The nun or priest in your example wouldn't have a determinate sexuality attached, they could not be said to be homo or heterosexual but rather in a state of flux. The Schrodinger's cat of sexuality.
 
So in such case, virgin priests who have never touched a woman and enter the priest hood, swearing the celibacy and never touching a woman in an intimate way for the rest of their life....or to flip the gender, a nun in the same circumstance....those individual would not be Heterosexuals because sexual orientation is defined by physical actions, not attraction?

Please, tell me then...what would such a Nun or Priest be.
I have no idea and neither do you - nor could anyone ever know without some sort of telltale behavior on the part of the priest/nun.
 
You are what you eat. :mrgreen:

The nun or priest in your example wouldn't have a determinate sexuality attached, they could not be said to be homo or heterosexual but rather in a state of flux. The Schrodinger's cat of sexuality.

One, you get a gold star for the Schrodinger's cat reference

Two, that's a reasonable way to look at it even if I disagree...IF it actually is applied consistently. IE if a "gay" is only "Gay" because of their actions, than a "straight" person is only "straight" at such a point that they're physically engaging in "straight" actions.
 
They don't have a "right" to refuse it....any more than heterosexuals have a "right" to refuse gays...or any more than gys have a "right" to have it changed. No one has a "right" to a DEFINITION being any particular fashion. So your question is idiotic to begin with as it's very premise is illogical.

Who has a right to refuse bisexuals or sisters/brothers from marrying each other then? Who has a right to exclude me from a club I want to join just because I'm a man?

When has marriage ever been the societal norm as what marriage is? Tell me. Otherwise you're just tossing out insults and trying to minimize facts you cannot refute.

Which is irrelevant to now. You don't seemingly understand or know what "precedence" means. 13 years ago many of the portinos of the PATRIOT Act that have been upheld would've been inconcievable to be implimented or viewed as constitutional. Twenty years ago the notion of needing to worry about charging underage kids with child pornography due to sending their boyfriend a naked picture was inconcievable due to the logistics of how it could be done. 65 years ago the notion of a woman serving in the military was blasphemous. 50 years ago the thought of a black and white couple marrying in the south was inconcievable. What is "inconcievable" in the past is not a basis for a strong and useful argument on how to function within the present.

It's only irrelevant now because you don't want to address it. What gives the special right to change what the definition of marriage is over any other sexual group? Not all traditions are meant to be broken. Marriage as a traditional institution serves a specific purpose. It's like a club. Nobody is barred from joining the club as long as you follow the rules. I can't marry a man right now. Why should gay people have that special right? Especially when other sexual interest groups want to marry men too? Why are only gays allowed to marry men?

The founders never would've concieved of gay marriage. They also never would've concieved of an Air Force, Cyber Security, and the world wide web. This is why the Founders laid forth a framework and foundation for the country to function on going forward...because htere's an understanding that they could not hope to know what 100 or 200 or 500 years in the future would bring, so they sought to create a document that would hopefully be both limiting in terms of the governments scope while adaptable to new realities.

The founders conceived of National Security as a technical necessity for the survival of the country. That's why National Defense is specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Show me gay marriage is mentioned in the Constitution. I'd love to see it. Your attempt at morally equating the two is silly.

Now, do I disagree with the notion of Marriage being some absolute constitutional right? Yes. HOWEVER, unlike some other conservatives, I understand as well that the SCOTUS was established by that very same constitution. As such, I generally function from a mindset of reality. The reality is that until such time that the decision regarding marriage as a federall protected right is overturned, that it IS a right protected by the constitution. And as such, rulings and laws in the future need to adhere to that decision. To not do so it completely invalidate our legal system and the constitution itself as it basically proclaims that the system in place should be replaced with egotistical anarchy.

Where is marriage in the Constitution. Show me. When did a Founding Father ever state the definition of what marriage is, as it's been known since the beginning of mankind, ever be subject to change because gay people wanted to change it? When did Jefferson ever claim only gays should be given the special right to change the definition of marriage over other sexual interest groups?

Would my preference be to over turn the precedence that marriage is a federally protected right, allowing individual states to govern it largely because it's simply yet another thing I don't believe the federal government needs to be involved in? Absolutely. But, until that happens, then subsiquent law relating to it MUST adhere to that ruling because THAT'S how it constitutionally works.

Ok you agree the states should decide. Great. Now we're getting somewhere.

As to your paranoid conspiracy theorist tin foil rant at the end, save your breath typing that **** to me because I'm not going to gift you the benefit of any further response to such trash.

it's not a tinfoil hat CT. Your name calling now. That doesn't interest me. Cultural Marxism is very real. The first thing Marxists do is attack traditions and culture. All gay marriage really is, is a product of Critical Theory. Gay marriage goes against Natural Law. It has no social or economic purpose. It's a cultural push firmly grounded in political correctness. The US Culture is dominated by Cultural Marxism.

Gays do not have a right to marry someone of the same sex over any other sexual interest group. Marriage has always meant man + woman. Gays don't get the right to change it to man + ? or woman + ? at the exclusion of others. Let everyone vote at the state level to decide what marriage is.
 
Maybe in some "if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it" philosophical sense, but not in the real world.

This is only true if you do not understand the definition of orientation, heterosexuality and homosexuality.
 
This is only true if you do not understand the definition of orientation, heterosexuality and homosexuality.
Do you have an argument to make, or are you just going to paste definitions and pretend that you're making some sort of point?
 
Do you have an argument to make, or are you just going to paste definitions and pretend that you're making some sort of point?

Since my point is you do not know what you are talking about and are wrong, and I posted the definition to prove that, I think I have done a pretty good job of making my point.
 
Since my point is you do not know what you are talking about and are wrong, and I posted the definition to prove that, I think I have done a pretty good job of making my point.
The only thing your definition proved is that you know how to copy and paste.
 
The only thing your definition proved is that you know how to copy and paste.

And that orientation is based on who some one is attracted to. And that it does matter. And that you where wrong.
 
Who has a right to refuse bisexuals or sisters/brothers from marrying each other then?
If you cannot articulate any demonstrable harm, then nobody.

Who has a right to exclude me from a club I want to join just because I'm a man?
Private organizations are not subject to the all of the same limitations as the government.

When has marriage ever been the societal norm as what marriage is? Tell me. Otherwise you're just tossing out insults and trying to minimize facts you cannot refute.
Facts like "marriage has never changed?" That has been refuted, but feel free to keep ignoring that.

It's only irrelevant now because you don't want to address it. What gives the special right to change what the definition of marriage is over any other sexual group? Not all traditions are meant to be broken. Marriage as a traditional institution serves a specific purpose. It's like a club. Nobody is barred from joining the club as long as you follow the rules. I can't marry a man right now. Why should gay people have that special right? Especially when other sexual interest groups want to marry men too? Why are only gays allowed to marry men?
What? Why on earth would you think "only gays would be allowed to marry men?" You could marry a man if same-sex marriage were legal. Have fun!

The founders conceived of National Security as a technical necessity for the survival of the country. That's why National Defense is specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Show me gay marriage is mentioned in the Constitution. I'd love to see it. Your attempt at morally equating the two is silly.
It is covered by the 14th amendment.

Where is marriage in the Constitution. Show me. When did a Founding Father ever state the definition of what marriage is, as it's been known since the beginning of mankind, ever be subject to change because gay people wanted to change it? When did Jefferson ever claim only gays should be given the special right to change the definition of marriage over other sexual interest groups?
Oh, well, if this all-important definition isn't in the constitution, you have no right to it and therefore have no right to keep it the same! I'm glad we've settled this.


Gays do not have a right to marry someone of the same sex over any other sexual interest group. Marriage has always meant man + woman. Gays don't get the right to change it to man + ? or woman + ? at the exclusion of others. Let everyone vote at the state level to decide what marriage is.

But marriage isn't in the constitution! You have no claim to its definition!
 
If you cannot articulate any demonstrable harm, then nobody.

Ok then as far as marriage is concerned, anything goes right?

Private organizations are not subject to the all of the same limitations as the government.

So as far as Government and marriage is concerned, anything goes yes?

Facts like "marriage has never changed?" That has been refuted, but feel free to keep ignoring that.

Marriage has always meant man + woman. What gives gays the special right over any other sexual interest group to change what the definition of marriage is?

What? Why on earth would you think "only gays would be allowed to marry men?" You could marry a man if same-sex marriage were legal. Have fun!

Why should gays get the special right to marry anything they want over everyone else?

It is covered by the 14th amendment.

14th amendment had to do with slavery. Not man marrying a man. Founders never envisioned gay marriage. Marriage is not in the Constitution.


Oh, well, if this all-important definition isn't in the constitution, you have no right to it and therefore have no right to keep it the same! I'm glad we've settled this.

Nobody is denying gays the ability to have a ceremony and call it marriage right now. Marriage is an institution with a specific purpose and it has specific meaning. Gays want to change the definition of what that has been for thousands of years. What gives them the special right to change what the definition of marriage is over any other sexual interest group? Who defines the limits?


But marriage isn't in the constitution! You have no claim to its definition!

Words have meaning and definitions. Marriage has had one definition always. Man + woman. Not man+ ? or woman + ?
 
And that orientation is based on who some one is attracted to. And that it does matter.
LOL right, and intelligence is based on how smart you are and motivation is based on how much drive you have...

None have any real world significance devoid of behavior.
 
Ok then as far as marriage is concerned, anything goes right?
So as far as Government and marriage is concerned, anything goes yes?

No. Where did you get that idea?

Marriage has always meant man + woman. What gives gays the special right over any other sexual interest group to change what the definition of marriage is?
Personal liberty gives me that right.

Why should gays get the special right to marry anything they want over everyone else?
Um, dude, same-sex marriage isn't magically limited to homosexuals. You can marry a dude if you want to. Really, nobody is going to stop you. It's not "over" anybody.

Why should you have the special right to marry who you want?
 
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