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Thread: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

  1. #171
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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    ........... I think it's a mistake to cede the word "marriage" to a select group of favored citizens who have decided they own the definition of that word.
    I think I touched on your other points in responding to others. With regards to this, I am one Conservative who has no problem with equal privileges. I do not think that any religion should be required to perform SSM though. I am OK with any state using two separate but equal terms, reserving "Marriage" for hetero unions. But I don't care much either way. I just like the legal arguments made. This is top-shelf stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Not lousy at all, you claim we should do majority rule. Make up your mind. If SCOTUS determines SSM is protected under an existing amendment, than you claim majority should rule. So my example isn't a strawman it's applying YOUR logic.
    Nowhere have I supported what you erroneously claim. I advocate for equal privileges. Always have. I have never supported mob rule. I think your post was quite ill-informed.

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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I think I touched on your other points in responding to others. With regards to this, I am one Conservative who has no problem with equal privileges. I do not think that any religion should be required to perform SSM though. I am OK with any state using two separate but equal terms, reserving "Marriage" for hetero unions. But I don't care much either way. I just like the legal arguments made. This is top-shelf stuff.
    Why should marriage be reserved for your beliefs and not my beliefs?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Heterosexual marriage indeed fosters stable family units that benefit society and this is a benefit of the existence of marriage.
    Excluding homosexual couples from getting married does not further that goal. In fact, it harms it: marriage makes homosexual relationships more stable just like it does heterosexual relationships, and that is beneficial to raising children.
    I do not necessarily disagree with what you assert. However, I look for the affirmative argument, and whether SSM furthers procreation or not is not the legal issue in my eyes. It may be the sympathetic one. I know that my brother and his mate deliberately traveled to Iowa just to have that document, a Marriage Certificate, even though it conferred no added privileges to them back in their home state. There they have to do it the incremental way. But I clearly understand the "feel-good" nature of it. I was happy that it made my brother happier. I did not really care otherwise.

    I also understand those who oppose what they see as a denigration of the meaning of a Marriage. So I am content with letting the most local folks (the States) decide.

    Now that it is in front of SCOTUS, it is a great listen.

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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Why should marriage be reserved for your beliefs and not my beliefs?
    It was not reserved for either of our beliefs. It clearly evolved via the natural process of procreation, and the legal issues that naturally flowed from such as man formed societies. It became institutionalized in that mold over centuries, if not millennia.

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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    By no stretch of imagination is 52% "overwhelming" and since when is it ok for us to vote to take away rights?
    Isn't 52% about what obama got, he acts like he has some kind of mandate.

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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I do not necessarily disagree with what you assert. However, I look for the affirmative argument, and whether SSM furthers procreation or not is not the legal issue in my eyes. It may be the sympathetic one. I know that my brother and his mate deliberately traveled to Iowa just to have that document, a Marriage Certificate, even though it conferred no added privileges to them back in their home state. There they have to do it the incremental way. But I clearly understand the "feel-good" nature of it. I was happy that it made my brother happier. I did not really care otherwise.

    I also understand those who oppose what they see as a denigration of the meaning of a Marriage. So I am content with letting the most local folks (the States) decide.

    Now that it is in front of SCOTUS, it is a great listen.
    Why should I have to make an affirmative argument regarding individual liberty? Shouldn't you have to make the argument against it?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Contrary to what a few liberals said, I believe that Scalia's argument was simplistically brilliant:

    Scalia's argument, which was advanced by Chief Justice John Roberts before him, was that when the institution of marriage developed historically, it was not done with the explicit intent of excluding gay and lesbian couples.

    "We don't prescribe law for the future," Scalia said. "We decide what the law is. I'm curious, when did it become unconstitutional to exclude homosexual couples from marriage? 1791? 1868? When the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted?"

    Olson countered that with a question of his own, bringing up two past high-profile cases involving discrimination.

    "When did it become unconstitutional to prohibit interracial marriages? When did it become unconstitutional to assign children to separate schools?" Olson asked.

    The two went back and forth, with Scalia repeatedly questioning when, specifically, it became unconstitutional to bar gay couples from marrying. Olson argued back, but ended up conceding that there was no specific date.

    "Well, how am I supposed to how to decide a case, then, if you can't give me a date when the Constitution changes?" Scalia said.

    "Because in the case that's before you today, the citizens of California decide — after the California Supreme Court decided that individuals had a right to get married irrespective of their sexual orientation in California — then the Californians decided in Proposition 8, wait a minute, we don't want those people to be able to get married."


    Read more: Scalia On Gay Marriage: 'When Did It Become Unconstitutional?' - Business Insider
    Simply put, it is not a Constitutional issue.

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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Isn't 52% about what obama got, he acts like he has some kind of mandate.
    There is a bit of difference between an elected official and a piece of legislation, if you were unaware.
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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Contrary to what a few liberals said, I believe that Scalia's argument was simplistically brilliant:



    Simply put, it is not a Constitutional issue.
    The response is also brilliant. When did it become unconstitutional to ban interracial marriage? Scalia says it was the adoption of the 14th amendment. Yet that's not when it became legal.

    Same-sex marriage bans became unconstitutional with the adoption of the 14th amendment. We're just way, way overdue in recognizing that.

    Scalia is a dip**** and people should really stop relying on him.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Why should I have to make an affirmative argument regarding individual liberty? Shouldn't you have to make the argument against it?
    You made the argument that SSM in no way impacted the ability of others to procreate. That is not an argument for "liberty".

    I said "so what". In that such is not an affirmative argument.

    I also defer to Scalia's argument. Look, SSM was first adopted all of 13 years ago in the Netherlands. Hardly a situation that has been long-defined as a denial of liberty. Seems much more a political issue.

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