Page 15 of 36 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast
Results 141 to 150 of 357

Thread: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

  1. #141
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ft. Campbell, KY
    Last Seen
    12-31-14 @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    12,177

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    That comes down to the basic definition of "marriage", again raised by Scalia today. There are also remedies to the above that do not require changing that definition. CA already has laws that apply within its jurisdiction. The question is then if it is proper for the Federal Government, with such as the Military, to not also allow those privileges outside of traditional marriage. That is a different question than redefining the qualifications for the legal institution of Marriage.

    I have personal interests too, btw. I am ex-military. I have a brother legally married to his same-sex spouse. So I am qualified too




    That is a non-sequitur. I am not arguing the feel-goodedness of gay marriage, one way or the other. Frankly, I do not care.



    This argument got ripped to shreds today. I encourage folks to listen to the approximately 90 minute presentations. There are no tangible legal argument parallels between the case for inter-racial marriage and same-sex marriages, in that the reasons for overturning bans on the former do not apply to the latter. This was clearly noted by two Justices (Roberts and Scalia, I think). Note that the audio of today's proceedings does not identify who is speaking, unless one is addressed by title by someone speaking.
    Well I would be hesitant to say that an argument is invalid because one justice may disagree with it, there are 8 others of course.

    I'm curious, if we are only talking legaleses what is your argument against gay marriage, or am I not looking at the correct context, is it more of an argument that a Proposition should stand in your eyes?

  2. #142
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:11 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,331
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Transcript in neat format, assuming the link works: Hollingsworth v. Perry | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law

    Note what the arguments actually are and are not.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  3. #143
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Last Seen
    12-29-15 @ 10:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,747

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    If SCOTUS kicks it back on procedural grounds, the existing ruling stands. The 9th circuit court overturned prop 8 in February of last year.
    Correct. As I have noted, 9 states already have SSM. Their laws are not on the chopping block, are they ? Is anyone challenging those laws ?

    Intermediate scrutiny requires that a particular method of discrimination serve an important state interest, and be directed at furthering that interest. Same-sex marriage bans do not further this interest in promoting and regulating procreation, therefore are not an argument relevant to same-sex marriage bans.
    Frankly "Because I say so" is not much of an argument. The precedents that I noted, and which different Justices noted today, would seem far more informed on this than you ... or I.

    Heterosexual sex makes babies. That is an enormous issue, with long-lasting repercussions of every sort, with any society. That is the basis for the origin of "Marriage", and all the legalities it entails.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 03-26-13 at 08:41 PM.

  4. #144
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:11 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,331
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Nice summary from SCOTUSBlog, with a ton of links to follow up with: Evening round-up: Proposition 8 argument : SCOTUSblog

    Excerpt:

    At this blog, Lyle Denniston observes that, with the Justices so clearly split along ideological lines, focusing on Justice Kennedy to predict an outcome was an “even more reliable approach this time” than usual, and Justice Kennedy appeared strongly tempted to conclude that the case was improvidently granted. Thus, as Amy Howe observes in her review of the arguments “in Plain English,” “the real question before the Court is not whether it would strike down Proposition 8, or what the broader effect of such a decision might be, but whether it is going to reach the merits of the case at all.” Tom Goldstein explains that if these indications hold true, the Court’s ruling will take one of two forms: Either the Court could conclude that the proponents of Proposition 8 lacked standing to bring the claim, in which case it would “vacate the Ninth Circuit opinion but leave in place the distinct court decision invalidating Proposition 8,” or “the Court may dismiss the case because of an inability to reach a majority. . . . The upshot of either scenario is a modest step forward for gay rights advocates, but not a dramatic one.” In “Reaching a judgment,” Tom Goldstein reflects further on an additional option before the Court in Holingsworth light of its contemporaneous consideration of United States v. Windsor, the challenge to the federal Defense of Marriage Act: if the Court is unable to get five votes on any single issue, it may vote to vacate and remand the Ninth Circuit’s judgment in Hollingsworth for reconsideration in light of Windsor. [Disclosures: Kevin Russell of the law firm Goldstein & Russell, P.C., whose attorneys work for or contribute to this blog in various capacities, was among the counsel on an amicus brief filed by former senators in support of Edith Windsor in Windsor. Tejinder Singh, also of Goldstein & Russell, P.C., was among the counsel on an amicus brief filed by international human rights advocates in support of the respondents in Hollingsworth.]
    Bolded represent the two most likely scenarios from the outcome to today's case. However, if there is one thing every one should have learned from the Obamacare/ACA ruling, trying to read too much into oral arguments is a very bad idea.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  5. #145
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by longknife View Post
    IMHO, Prop 8 was an act of 70% of the voters of California and the Fed courts should never have become involved. Less than 2% of Californians are trying to overturn the will of the majority. Is this what this nation has become?
    What it's always been, a Democratic Republic where the will of the majority is checked by the rights and liberties of the minority. Why? What do you want it to be?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #146
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Last Seen
    12-29-15 @ 10:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,747

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Well I would be hesitant to say that an argument is invalid because one justice may disagree with it, there are 8 others of course.

    I'm curious, if we are only talking legaleses what is your argument against gay marriage, or am I not looking at the correct context, is it more of an argument that a Proposition should stand in your eyes?
    Its not that simple, as there are priorities.

    1) I do not think Marriage is a "right".

    2) I do think it is a state-level issue.

    3) I have interest in whether or not a state can pass such as a Prop 8. I note that all Prop 8 in CA really came down to was the word "Marriage". CA Civil Unions already had all the other privileges.

    4) I think that the Federal issue, regarding benefits, etc., with such as the Military, is a very good issue. I would be content if it were resolved without changing the definition of marriage, as it had been done in CA.

    I believe that I am very close to Rand Paul's position, which was to make all things "Civil Union", and then to add "Marriage" to some. Perhaps I have misstated or ever-simplified his position, but not by much I assume.

  7. #147
    Outer space potato man

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    51,830

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Correct. As I have noted, 9 states already have SSM. Their laws are not on the chopping block, are they ? Is anyone challenging those laws ?
    Today's hearing is specifically California's Prop 8. Tomorrow they hear some arguments on DOMA, specifically section 3. Multiple court rulings exist overturning that section in more than one jurisdiction, so even if SCOTUS punts this one on procedural grounds the exact same case is just going to come back to them. With that, I expect they'll have to issue some sort of ruling.

    Or maybe they're even more cowardly than I think they are



    Frankly "Because I say so" is not much of an argument. The precedents that I noted, and which different Justices noted today, would seem far more informed on this than you ... or I.

    Heterosexual sex makes babies. That is an enormous issue, with long-lasting repercussions of every sort, with any society. Theatis the basis for the origin of "Marriage", and all the legalities it entails.
    If you disagree, then explain to me how a same-sex marriage ban promotes procreation. Do gay people go "welp, I can't marry the person I love, so I'll marry someone of the opposite sex and have babies!" I just don't see that happening.

    You noted some justices, primarily Scalia. Who is a piece of **** who has absolutely no problem ignoring his jurisprudence when it suits his ideology.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  8. #148
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ft. Campbell, KY
    Last Seen
    12-31-14 @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    12,177

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Its not that simple, as there are priorities.

    1) I do not think Marriage is a "right".

    2) I do think it is a state-level issue.

    3) I have interest in whether or not a state can pass such as a Prop 8. I note that all Prop 8 in CA really came down to was the word "Marriage". CA Civil Unions already had all the other privileges.

    4) I think that the Federal issue, regarding benefits, etc., with such as the Military, is a very good issue. I would be content if it were resolved without changing the definition of marriage, as it had been done in CA.

    I believe that I am very close to Rand Paul's position, which was to make all things "Civil Union", and then to add "Marriage" to some. Perhaps I have misstated or ever-simplified his position, but not by much I assume.
    Alright well,

    1) The SCOTUS has in the passed said it was a right, that makes that argument tough in court.

    2) Perhaps if that is your opinion but the DOMA has obviously made it a Federal issue one way or the other.

    3)+4) I don't know if whether the word "marriage" or "civil union" is ultimately used really a big deal to me, it does kind of lead to the notion of a "second-class citizen" even if all the legal rights and benefits are the same.

  9. #149
    The Light of Truth
    Northern Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:47 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,968

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I am going to take issue with you here. I think that many of the arguments against are that marriage is not a "right", but rather an extension of privileges that meet certain prerequisites. Which then makes it a question of prerequisites.

    Let us not lose sight of the fact than 9 states allow SSM with full privileges. Meaning that it is conceivable that this is not a Constitutional issue. Would not be the first instance of varying privileges between states.
    Whether you want to call it a right of a privilege doesn't really matter. The fact is that one group is receiving the privilege while another group who should otherwise qualify is not receiving it, based on discrimination. To me this is not a complicated issue. Equal Protection should apply. If the Fed acknowledges straight marriage it should acknowledge gay marriage. Leaving it up to the States to decide does not make sense. There is nowhere in this country that straight people are denied marriage for any reason other than incest, so to claim there are special reasons why gays should be denied does not add up.

    SCOTUS needs to grow a pair and rule on Equal Protection. The worst case scenario is that SCOTUS won't hear the prop 8 case and CA can go about its business, but I would hope they would do more than that. I am tired of spending so much time addressing people's ignorance about homosexuality and SSM. Our country has more dire problems now. This debate needs to be ENDED already. Other countries where SSM is legal dealt with this a decade ago (i.e. Canada). They had one Parliamentary debate and then it was finished. We are now in our second decade of our national debate about this issue. It's pathetic and makes our nation look backward.

    Just decide already. Are gays equal citizens or not? If yes, then give them the right/privilege. Then we can all move our with our lives and address more important things like the coming economic collapse.

  10. #150
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:11 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,331
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: 5 possible outcomes of the Supreme Court Prop. 8 case

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Its not that simple, as there are priorities.

    1) I do not think Marriage is a "right".
    Legally, in the US, it is. You may not like it, but factually it is a right.

    2) I do think it is a state-level issue.
    DOMA makes SSM a federal issue. Further, since marriage is a right, it is protected by certain aspects of the US constitution which states rights cannot trump.

    3) I have interest in whether or not a state can pass such as a Prop 8. I note that all Prop 8 in CA really came down to was the word "Marriage". CA Civil Unions already had all the other privileges.
    Irrelevant to the case.

    4) I think that the Federal issue, regarding benefits, etc., with such as the Military, is a very good issue. I would be content if it were resolved without changing the definition of marriage, as it had been done in CA.

    I believe that I am very close to Rand Paul's position, which was to make all things "Civil Union", and then to add "Marriage" to some. Perhaps I have misstated or ever-simplified his position, but not by much I assume.
    If I understand correctly, your solution is to keep seperate and unequal types of marriage.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

Page 15 of 36 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •