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Thread: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Who was the source for these 'facts'?
    Its common knowledge that Bush negotiated the SOFA agreement which said all US troops would be out of Iraq by 31 December 2011, and that Obama attempted to renegotiate that agreement to allow some troops to stay longer, however that did not occur because Iraq refused to give US troops judicial immunity in their country and as a result we left Iraq in December 2011.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/wo...anted=all&_r=0

    Iraq Withdrawal: U.S. Abandoning Plans To Keep Troops In Country

    And here's the actual SOFA agreement

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/122074.pdf

    If you scroll down to page 20 you'll see the time line clearly laid out.

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Its common knowledge that Bush negotiated the SOFA agreement which said all US troops would be out of Iraq by 31 December 2011, and that Obama attempted to renegotiate that agreement to allow some troops to stay longer, however that did not occur because Iraq refused to give US troops judicial immunity in their country and as a result we left Iraq in December 2011.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/wo...anted=all&_r=0

    Iraq Withdrawal: U.S. Abandoning Plans To Keep Troops In Country

    And here's the actual SOFA agreement

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/122074.pdf

    If you scroll down to page 20 you'll see the time line clearly laid out.

    Yes, what a ballsup!

    "Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has told U.S. military officials that he does not have the votes in parliament to provide immunity to the American trainers, the U.S. military official said".

    And the Shiites would attack any Americans who stayed.

    Will the Americans ever be able to attract any Allies ever again? The most powerful military in the world, with more power than any others combined, haven't won a war since 1945 and are chased out of Afghanistan and Iraq. More dead Americans for nothing, with the country more vulnerable than ever. They even sign papers saying they will retreat and politicians press for 'withdrawal, a fancy word for 'retreat'. Incredible!!

    Kerry Urges U.S. to Start Withdrawal From Iraq

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, what a ballsup!

    "Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has told U.S. military officials that he does not have the votes in parliament to provide immunity to the American trainers, the U.S. military official said".

    And the Shiites would attack any Americans who stayed.

    Will the Americans ever be able to attract any Allies ever again? The most powerful military in the world, with more power than any others combined, haven't won a war since 1945 and are chased out of Afghanistan and Iraq. More dead Americans for nothing, with the country more vulnerable than ever. They even sign papers saying they will retreat and politicians press for 'withdrawal, a fancy word for 'retreat'. Incredible!!

    Kerry Urges U.S. to Start Withdrawal From Iraq
    I don't understand are you questioning my information? Are you suggesting that a Senator in 2005 was more of an influence on the US withdraw from Iraq in 2011 than the President or the Iraqis themselves?

    What the hell are you talking about? Nothing that you've said in any way contradicts the facts about why we pulled out of Iraq.

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I don't understand are you questioning my information? Are you suggesting that a Senator in 2005 was more of an influence on the US withdraw from Iraq in 2011 than the President or the Iraqis themselves?

    What the hell are you talking about? Nothing that you've said in any way contradicts the facts about why we pulled out of Iraq.
    I actually read through much of that document you sent between the US and Iraq and will never know why that was ever drawn up. It's crazy.

    Secondly, the vote didn't even go to the Iraqi Parliament. Would that have been worthwhile to learn what the parliament thinks rather than taking the word of one man? Wouldn't the President have pressed for a vote at least?

    What I am saying is that John Kerry is typical of too many American politicians who beg 'retreat' whenever an American is killed, and he responded the same way towards Iraq and Afghanistan as he did toward Vietnam. There are dozens of John Kerrys in American politics and many thousands more in the American media all working, and succeeding, in making America weak and vulnerable. They vote for war and they they do their damnedest to see that it doesn't succeed. And now this jerk is Sec of State! Those who want a strong America, rightly in my opinion, have lost the battle.

    Americans, despite their weaponry, cannot win a war. They can no longer be trusted as Allies and domestically they are collapsing as well.

    America is weaker and they have made the world a more dangerous place. You can find excuses why Americans cut and run - a document, a handshake, a wink and a nudge - but it seems they just wanted to just get the Hell out at any cost, and forget about those who died. The same is true of Afghanistan (they'll find an excuse there to cut and run also) the war Obama argued was the right one. What the Kerrys, Obamas, and their like forget is that they should always support their country in times of war. At one time that was a given but now they go out of their way to support and console the enemy, and turn on their own. It is shameful.

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I actually read through much of that document you sent between the US and Iraq and will never know why that was ever drawn up. It's crazy.

    Secondly, the vote didn't even go to the Iraqi Parliament. Would that have been worthwhile to learn what the parliament thinks rather than taking the word of one man? Wouldn't the President have pressed for a vote at least?

    What I am saying is that John Kerry is typical of too many American politicians who beg 'retreat' whenever an American is killed, and he responded the same way towards Iraq and Afghanistan as he did toward Vietnam. There are dozens of John Kerrys in American politics and many thousands more in the American media all working, and succeeding, in making America weak and vulnerable. They vote for war and they they do their damnedest to see that it doesn't succeed. And now this jerk is Sec of State! Those who want a strong America, rightly in my opinion, have lost the battle.

    Americans, despite their weaponry, cannot win a war. They can no longer be trusted as Allies and domestically they are collapsing as well.

    America is weaker and they have made the world a more dangerous place. You can find excuses why Americans cut and run - a document, a handshake, a wink and a nudge - but it seems they just wanted to just get the Hell out at any cost, and forget about those who died. The same is true of Afghanistan (they'll find an excuse there to cut and run also) the war Obama argued was the right one. What the Kerrys, Obamas, and their like forget is that they should always support their country in times of war. At one time that was a given but now they go out of their way to support and console the enemy, and turn on their own. It is shameful.
    So back to the subject, do you still think there's some other mystery reason we left Iraq besides the official reason?

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    So back to the subject, do you still think there's some other mystery reason we left Iraq besides the official reason?
    Yes, i still tend to think that way. I just cannot believe that US Leaders could be that shortsighted..

    We'll know better in the next few years.

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I didn't miss any of that. We cannot allow a dictator to bomb their own with the airforce. Not in Libya and not in Syria.
    Rolling Syria back is part of the plan, though. This situation (and the one in Iran) will continue to move about until the chess pieces are aligned correctly.

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Flamingo View Post
    The rebels are not so squeaky clean and although the country is a disaster there are better ways of helping the innocents than by providing aid and arms for the rebels.
    Like what? Praying? Providing arms and aid to Western Europe served Europeans well during both World Wars.

    The problem from one international event to the next is that people don't understand the true nature of globalization or morality. They will preach about how wonderful it is that we are global citiziens now, but refuse to accept that this means that unhealthy regions affect us more than ever before. A disease in some backwater country that spreads to its neighbor will affect trades ad economies. A civil war that spills over a border and pulls an ally in affects greater orgnizations like the UN or NATO. Dumping toxic waste in Somali waters and creating piracy in international water ways will affect the globe's trade routes. And when we complain that private medical businesses can heal the world of diseases if they only do the right thing, we should think about how hypocritical our objections are when governments feel the need to do the same thing to save lives or fix an unhealthy situation.

    My point is that we can pretend that things have nothing to do with us just like Americans did (and constantly do) during both World Wars in Europe, but in the end, an unhealthy region will affect even a nation that believes in isolation. The moment we wait until the solution is more expensive and deadlier just to pretend that we now have legitimacy is the moment we prove that we can't learn history's lessons. Will it be OK to deal with Syria after Turkey, Lebanon and Israel get pulled in so now the unhealthy situation is greater than it needed to be? We will tie our twisted sense of morality to international laws to feign legitimacy, but the truth is that we constantly have legitimacy if we actually believe in morality and smart tactics.

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    America is weaker and they have made the world a more dangerous place. You can find excuses why Americans cut and run - a document, a handshake, a wink and a nudge - but it seems they just wanted to just get the Hell out at any cost, and forget about those who died. The same is true of Afghanistan (they'll find an excuse there to cut and run also) the war Obama argued was the right one. What the Kerrys, Obamas, and their like forget is that they should always support their country in times of war. At one time that was a given but now they go out of their way to support and console the enemy, and turn on their own. It is shameful.
    Good God.

    The war in Iraq was over. For the last year and a half Marines were sitting around wndering why they are there. This is why they shifted over the Afghanistan when they did. The war in Afghanistan is done. Marines have been sitting around there for the last two years. We aren't dealing with Germany and Japan where unconditional surrenders came from single cultures. The Middle East is on the correct bloody path. They need to sort out on their own what Europeans did to them a long time ago. They suffer ultimately from bad borders. getting rid of the antagonizers that stood in the way of a correct path is our only military mission.

    "Cut and run" has nothing to do with the situations. We owe nobody on this earth a thing. In fact, were it not for them, Americans would be happier. The population was happier before World War I. Vietnam happened because we sided with the French colony other than Ho Chi Minh who asked for our help in his mission of national self-determination. Nasser of Egypt was driven towards Moscow for support during the Cold War because we sided with the British colony rather than agree to assist Nasser when he asked for support in his mission of national self-determination. When Iran nationalized its oil, the British trumped up intel of communist activity so we engaged and propped up the Shah. The three biggest event in the 20th century was World War I, World War II, and the Cold War - all started in Europe and sucked us in. If it weren't for Eisenhower forcing the British and the French away from Egypt in 1957, they could have ignited a World War III that would have sucked us in.

    "Cut and run?" Give me a break. We only owe ourselves and the sooner Americans learn that we have and will always be in the business of making regions stable in the interests of trade the smarter they will be. We have had two wars of revenege - Japan and Afghanistan. Everything else has been about dealing witha region's unhealthy tendencies that threatenn economic stability.

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    Re: US provides aid to Syrian rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Ok but believing something without anything to support it is pretty much a conspiracy theory. I do agree both Libya and Iraq will be judged better in the future as things continue to develop.
    Commonalities....

    1) Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria. Notice the commonality? The Arab Spring and democracies?

    2) Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Mali. Notice the commonality? Large Al-Queda bases of operations?

    The ultimate commonality is that this is all happening in the MENA. The situation since 9/11 has been regioal. We are at war with a civilization full of ignorance, religious zeal, a lack of social justice, bad borders, and extremism. It also happens to be the last unhealthy region on earth. Before today's example, we dealt with Asia's regions. Before that it was Europe that provided the unhealthy region. I suspect years from now people will still insist that each of these countries had nothing do with anything outside their individual borders. The fighters in each one may thin differnet. But step back and you see the same issues in each and a region that perpetuates it. Hell just look at the religion. Islam is healthier the further it moves away from the concreted faith of the Arab heartland. Trueky stands out. Indonesia stand out. And Muslims are freer to practice their tribal religions in the West.

    9/11, Al-Queda, local civil wars, and tribal slaughter are all mere symptoms of a bigger disease. We should praise the instability that removing dictators and religious theocracies bring. Even Europe had to finally sort out its tribal garbage in the 20th century before it could experience its longest lasting peace in history.

    What's happening in Asia? A little publicized genocide in Myanmar and North Korea's posturing? What about Europe? Aside from "Yugoslavia" (the only country not have its borders re-drawn after WWII by the way) not much. Everything appears to be a Middle Eastern/North African problem. Even the Afghanistan/Pakistan issue involves Islamic countries and are on the fringe of the Middle East. Why people can't see a regional issue as they pretend that nothing has anything to do with anything else is beyond me.
    Last edited by MSgt; 04-02-13 at 12:15 PM.

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