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Thread: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriage

  1. #141
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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Dude, your sites go far beyond "liberal media"... Sorry, it isn't my obligation to go on a wild goose chase to try and educate you why a site like 'crooks and liars' is just not credible in serious circles...It would be different if we were talking about the LAtimes, or NYTimes or something, but the sites you are basing your opinion on are just as whacky as if I used Alex Jones to claim that Obama wanted to imprison his opposition and their families in concentration style FEMA camps....It's just laughable.


    So in otherwords, you can't disprove what I posted from the source I posted and instead are making an argument that the source is bad.

    So weak. And lacking in any real information on this subject. That's what you get for paying attention to FOx misinformation channel.

    Ad By Crossroads, Karl Rove's Outfit, Yanked Off Air For Being False (UPDATE)

    An ad by Karl Rove-backed Crossroads GPS was yanked from rotation on a Montana cable show because it made claims that the network deemed false.

    Recently a number of ads by the well-funded conservative outfit have been declared misleading and false, but the spot targeting Sen. Jon Tester (D-Mont.) is apparently the first pulled from the air. The Associated Press reported that other outlets are still running the ad.
    More of the same crookedness of Rove
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Good grief...I don't know why I bother responding to posters like you MC....


    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    So in otherwords, you can't disprove what I posted....
    Stop right there...Where did you learn debate? From an 8 year old?

    Hint: You made the claim, it is up to you to prove it using mutually agreeable sources....Which means your hyper partisan, leftist sources don't mean ****, and I don't have to disprove any of it, because you haven't proven anything other than you are a partisan hack.

    Now, when you want to debate something let me know, but acting smug, and being a child is not debate, so I am not interested. Good day.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Good grief...I don't know why I bother responding to posters like you MC....




    Stop right there...Where did you learn debate? From an 8 year old?

    Hint: You made the claim, it is up to you to prove it using mutually agreeable sources....Which means your hyper partisan, leftist sources don't mean ****, and I don't have to disprove any of it, because you haven't proven anything other than you are a partisan hack.

    Now, when you want to debate something let me know, but acting smug, and being a child is not debate, so I am not interested. Good day.
    Criticizing the source is NOT a rebuttal. Where did you learn it was? The evidence is what needs to be refuted and if it can't, then it stands as evidence.

    Someone getting huffy about a source and not being able to refute it is handling it like a child. Either demonstrate knowledge in an area, or post where you have gained some knowledge. That's not being smug...it's being adult.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Well, any group that shares something in common, especially if it is something outside the mainstream, is going to form a community. And that such a group is marginalized makes a difference in how that community operates. Jews have a community. Star Trek fans have a community. Gays have a community. In each case, being oppressed in some form makes up part of that community's mentality. It's unavoidable. The way to bridge that gap is to not oppress them. I think you're mixing cause and effect here.
    So you're saying that gays have seen a level of oppression similar to Star Trek fans? /sarcasm

    But on a serious note now.

    You're missing my point here. When that community takes on an attitude of oppression and victimization it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will always be looking to blame others for your problems. What happens when SS couples do get the right to marry? Do you think they are just going to suddenly the issue? Fat chance.

    Also it looks to get others to conform to that commmunity's ideology. I have already seen the primitive form of this with my sociology teacher's rantings about heteronormativity. Suddenly gays cannot just be homosexual, they have to conform to the gay sub-culture lest they be attacked for being "giving into heteronormativity." It's dangerous and its devisive and I may still be okay with SSM but I don't like where I see this going.

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    Criticizing the source is NOT a rebuttal. Where did you learn it was? The evidence is what needs to be refuted and if it can't, then it stands as evidence.

    Someone getting huffy about a source and not being able to refute it is handling it like a child. Either demonstrate knowledge in an area, or post where you have gained some knowledge. That's not being smug...it's being adult.
    When you have some evidence to provide, I'll be happy to consider it. Until then, hyper partisan opinion is not evidence....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    When you have some evidence to provide, I'll be happy to consider it. Until then, hyper partisan opinion is not evidence....
    Sure it is. And I offered several facts on the issue. What you do with it is a reflection of you. Not me.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    Sure it is. And I offered several facts on the issue. What you do with it is a reflection of you. Not me.
    Let's recap shall we?

    I just said:

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac
    ...hyper partisan opinion is not evidence....
    You replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyCreek
    Sure it is.
    I think that is all anyone needs to know about how you approach topics...We're done here.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    You're missing my point here. When that community takes on an attitude of oppression and victimization it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will always be looking to blame others for your problems. What happens when SS couples do get the right to marry? Do you think they are just going to suddenly the issue? Fat chance.
    It's not a prophecy. People don't band together in the expectation of oppression. They band together to overcome it. You're mixing cause and effect. I see your point that holding on to that element when oppression ends could be a problem, but that's a hypothetical future that is not today. There is still plenty of oppression to be overcome before anyone risks holding grudges when they shouldn't. What's going to happen when same sex couples can legally marry? They'll marry, and enjoy the same rights and privileges as everyone else, and it will be one more step towards a future where no one is judged or ostracized for being gay.

    Also it looks to get others to conform to that commmunity's ideology. I have already seen the primitive form of this with my sociology teacher's rantings about heteronormativity. Suddenly gays cannot just be homosexual, they have to conform to the gay sub-culture lest they be attacked for being "giving into heteronormativity." It's dangerous and its devisive and I may still be okay with SSM but I don't like where I see this going.
    There are some people who try to keep a community insular, but they are few and far between. It's the same as Tevyeh in Fiddler on the Roof who cannot accept his daughter marrying outside the faith. In the modern world, a lot of people don't cling to that kind of exclusive membership to a community like that. The way to break out of that mold is through coexistence and cooperation. As the barriers that keep people in a minority community isolated break down, everyone intermingles more. Equality between people is the cure for the problems that trouble you. Truly equal people won't have cause for friction, and won't need to distance themselves from each other.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    So you're saying that gays have seen a level of oppression similar to Star Trek fans? /sarcasm

    But on a serious note now.

    You're missing my point here. When that community takes on an attitude of oppression and victimization it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will always be looking to blame others for your problems. What happens when SS couples do get the right to marry? Do you think they are just going to suddenly the issue? Fat chance.

    Also it looks to get others to conform to that commmunity's ideology. I have already seen the primitive form of this with my sociology teacher's rantings about heteronormativity. Suddenly gays cannot just be homosexual, they have to conform to the gay sub-culture lest they be attacked for being "giving into heteronormativity." It's dangerous and its devisive and I may still be okay with SSM but I don't like where I see this going.
    You don't know many of your gay acquaintances are gay, do you? Just this idea that one has to be a flamboyant mary or else be ousted by the community shows you have no clue. There are some reasons to act in an identifiable way in a hostile society. Unlike people of different nationalities or colors there is no way to actually tell someone is gay by looking at them unless they give off some form of signal. This is why many straight people think all gay people give off that "signal." In fact many don't for a number of reasons. When you see gay people in a predominantly gay environment where you would expect such a prejudice, you will notice many gay men don't act gay. They are not ostracized for not doing it. The only place i have ever seen something like that occurring is in youth. That is more of an issue of being young and stupid rather than being gay.

    So please, stop trying to spread fear that gays are going to force american men into some wussy stereotype. I don't care if some college professor told you about it. If college professors knew anything about life they would be living it and not teaching it wrong. There is a diversity in the gay community that runs through every personality type you can think of. Maybe if you actually went out and saw it instead of taking someone else's word on it you would not be so ignorant of it. Oh, and yes there is a lot of prejudice against gays that goes on in silent forms.

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    Re: Karl Rove: 'I Could' Imagine Next GOP Presidential Nominee Supporting Gay Marriag

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    You don't know many of your gay acquaintances are gay, do you? Just this idea that one has to be a flamboyant mary or else be ousted by the community shows you have no clue. There are some reasons to act in an identifiable way in a hostile society. Unlike people of different nationalities or colors there is no way to actually tell someone is gay by looking at them unless they give off some form of signal. This is why many straight people think all gay people give off that "signal." In fact many don't for a number of reasons. When you see gay people in a predominantly gay environment where you would expect such a prejudice, you will notice many gay men don't act gay. They are not ostracized for not doing it. The only place i have ever seen something like that occurring is in youth. That is more of an issue of being young and stupid rather than being gay.

    So please, stop trying to spread fear that gays are going to force american men into some wussy stereotype. I don't care if some college professor told you about it. If college professors knew anything about life they would be living it and not teaching it wrong. There is a diversity in the gay community that runs through every personality type you can think of. Maybe if you actually went out and saw it instead of taking someone else's word on it you would not be so ignorant of it. Oh, and yes there is a lot of prejudice against gays that goes on in silent forms.
    I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. I know plenty of gay people who are not flamboyant etc. etc. I'm not saying that is what is going on right now. I am saying that is possibly a dangerous direction we could be headed in if we start seeing gays criticizing other gays for not "conforming to the community." It's not about "oh all gays act a certain way." I don't think even most blacks act a certain way, yet you still see routine friction between people like Jalen Rose and Chris Webber on how "legitimately black" one or the other is based on how they grew up. That is what I am talking about when I say divisive.

    Also, my college professor was homosexual. He was talking about "heteronormative bias," in saying that "heterosexual culture" has seeped into the gay culture and basically saying that gays accepting "heterosexuality as normal," whatever the hell that means. It was sort of a shocker for me, to hear him basically criticizing gays who participate in mainstream culture, i.e. people like you talked about. It is clear that you did not understand my argument the first time, so I hope that this post clears up any misconceptions about what I was attempting to establish.

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