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FAA to Close 149 Air Traffic Towers Under Cuts......

upsideguy said:
They are talking about closing control towers, or overnight shifts at control towers, not airports. Planes, even commercial planes, do not require control towers to land.



Control towers are like post offices; many exist not because they are needed... they are pork barrel. One control tower that survived the chopping block was Front Range near Denver. Front Range is a sleepy airport about 30 miles east of the city. It never had a control tower until four years ago. The airport has very little traffic. The only reason the tower likely survived is the proximity of the field to Denver International Airport (about 3 miles west) ... otherwise the tower is superfluous, yet it survived.

The control tower close actually makes a ton of sense, as many are not likely worth the cost (staffing a control tower 24x7 has to cost $500k to $1M in salary alone), yet has only a marginal down tick is real safety (if you chose the right ones).... yet, it has a ton of political benefit as it sounds unsafe and therefore outrageous.
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Yeah, I know that's why I had put the part on them looking to shut down the Night Shift at Midway.....as well as Shutting the Toweer Down at Gary Airport.
 
tererun said:
Uhhh, ok so the people who make profit from air travel will have to provide their own systems without tax payer help to keep doing what their business needs to do. And how is this a horrible thing again? I don't understand why taxpayers who may not be flying are flipping the bill for other people's vacations. It seems to me that the government not providing airline welfare is a great way to cut costs. As for airline ticket prices going up, I don't fly. As for shipping costs going up, perhaps that is good for local manufacturing.

how is this a bad thing for all people and not just people who love being rammed into an uncomfortable tin can so they can visit exotic locations?
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Yeah.....did you get confused over that part about Businesses that Could hire their own people in to handle towers. Do you think that if Millionaires and Billionaires are paying for their own people and putting up their own towers and airfields that the government would be providing airline welfare? :roll:
 
MMC said:
https://faaco.faa.gov/index.cfm/announcement/view/9148

MISSION:

The mission of the FAA Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization Program is derived from Public Law 95-507 and Section 3.6.1.2 of the FAA Acquisition Management System (AMS), Small Business Program, which states "The FAA shall implement and aggressively strive to provide small businesses and small businesses owned and controlled by socially and economically disadvantaged individuals, attainable and reasonable opportunities to participate as prime and subcontractors for products and services procured by the FAA." This commitment is supported by vigorous outreach efforts, senior management accountability, and the monitoring of goal accomplishments at all levels in the agency.

Office of Small Business Development - Small Business Program Overview

Did you need to see some more Pencil Pushers and any other marketing done by the FAA. :lol:
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So they work for the faa?
 
tererun said:
Bad argument when you wonder why the people of the US are funding something that only benefits the airlines. They should cut all US hired ATC people, unless they are working for a military operation. This should all be funded by private enterprise. instead the taxpayers get to fund it. I am good with this cut and think we should slash anything but regulatory people making sure businesses keep up certain ATC standards. I don't see why we are doing welfare for the airlines to begin with.
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Yep. Just like the TSA, the FAA serves only the flying public directly, although it does provide indirect increased safety for those that would be zapped if airliners suddenly dropped upon them. The most logical thing would be to fund the TSA/FAA via user fees imposed upon the airlines (perhaps by taxing aircraft fuel), which would naturally be passed on as higher ticket prices for passengers and higher cargo charges for air freight. This is the scheme largely used to fund our nation's roadways by federal/state excise taxation of motor fuels.
 
In a related cut, the blue angels will no longer perform.

The sequester, I told you so!

lulz
 
LiberalAvenger said:
In a related cut, the blue angels will no longer perform.

The sequester, I told you so!

lulz
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Yeah, they have canceled for the Chicago Airshow. Although Emanuel is treading water and he may be able to call up Obama and ask a favor. Gotta keeps those Shootings down around here, know what I mean. ;)
 
MMC said:
Did you need to see some more Pencil Pushers and any other marketing done by the FAA
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I hate to break this to you, but that office is basically a blip in FAA spending.

It's so small, it doesn't even show up in the budget as a line item. It's a part of the Acquisition and Business Services (ACQ), which gets $45 million per year, and:
• procures the goods and services the FAA needs
• manages FAA contracts (around 50,000 per year)
• targets 25% of those contracts to small businesses
• does cost analyses for purchases and services
• makes sure its acquisition process complies with existing laws

The FAA's Office of Small Business don't do "marketing" and aren't "pencil pushers," nor are they a massive drain on the budget. The FAA is legally required to award contracts to small businesses. If you think this can be done by two guys in a closet, then you're dreaming.

Again: Here's the FAA's 2013 Budget. You might want to actually read it before declaring something has no utility whatsoever.
 
tererun said:
Bad argument when you wonder why the people of the US are funding something that only benefits the airlines. They should cut all US hired ATC people, unless they are working for a military operation. This should all be funded by private enterprise. instead the taxpayers get to fund it. I am good with this cut and think we should slash anything but regulatory people making sure businesses keep up certain ATC standards. I don't see why we are doing welfare for the airlines to begin with.
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If you think air traffic control only benefits the airlines, there's nothing to talk to you about. You're so far removed from reality that you can't adequately discuss the topic.
 
MMC said:
Yeah.....did you get confused over that part about Businesses that Could hire their own people in to handle towers. Do you think that if Millionaires and Billionaires are paying for their own people and putting up their own towers and airfields that the government would be providing airline welfare? :roll:
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Did you get confused where i said they should have done that from the start and the taxpayers have no reason to be paying for something that only effects their business operation? Airports and airlines should flip the bill for the people who run their towers. The taxpayer has no place in providing that service so they can avoid operational costs. Of course, this is another example of where republicans and conservatives support taxpayers flipping the bill for private business when it should be handled by the free market. gee, does that mean that all the hype people like you put into conservative ideals about the free market is all a load of BS? If it is not a load of BS you should be supporting the elimination of government run ATC programs in every airport.
 
tererun said:
Did you get confused where i said they should have done that from the start and the taxpayers have no reason to be paying for something that only effects their business operation? Airports and airlines should flip the bill for the people who run their towers. The taxpayer has no place in providing that service so they can avoid operational costs. Of course, this is another example of where republicans and conservatives support taxpayers flipping the bill for private business when it should be handled by the free market. gee, does that mean that all the hype people like you put into conservative ideals about the free market is all a load of BS? If it is not a load of BS you should be supporting the elimination of government run ATC programs in every airport.
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Well considering I had already stated what you came in saying.....concerning those Millionaires and billionaires. Kinda tells you where I was at with the issue. Hence my question if you were confused as you were explaining what I had said in short form.

I wouldn't know about the Hype BS you are talking about and making some assumption over. I try not to get into all that assuming BS. Which is why I ask questions. ;)
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep. Just like the TSA, the FAA serves only the flying public directly, although it does provide indirect increased safety for those that would be zapped if airliners suddenly dropped upon them. The most logical thing would be to fund the TSA/FAA via user fees imposed upon the airlines (perhaps by taxing aircraft fuel), which would naturally be passed on as higher ticket prices for passengers and higher cargo charges for air freight. This is the scheme largely used to fund our nation's roadways by federal/state excise taxation of motor fuels.
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I am pretty sure the airline3s and airports have a vested interest is providing safe ATC operations for their customers. Nothing says take the train like a bunch of plane crashes, hijackings, or other in air problems. granted i could see a transitionary period where the airlines and airports would take over the responsibility, but I am all for them taking over full responsibility for their business. We can tax them anyway. they are using our airspace and ruining neighborhoods with noise pollution. I figure we could do both.
 
when government workers are displaced, many will join the unemployment and public assistance rolls, which will also piss off conservatives.

the fact remains, our resource distribution model is job : money : access to resources. that leaves us with the choice of hiring people to do something or paying them not to. they are not all going to find private sector jobs; it's a fantasy.
 
tererun said:
Bad argument when you wonder why the people of the US are funding something that only benefits the airlines. They should cut all US hired ATC people, unless they are working for a military operation. This should all be funded by private enterprise. instead the taxpayers get to fund it. I am good with this cut and think we should slash anything but regulatory people making sure businesses keep up certain ATC standards. I don't see why we are doing welfare for the airlines to begin with.
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ATC is not welfare for the airlines by any means any more than highway dollars are welfare for the trucking industry. ATC is core infrastructure. We could not have aviation without it (commercial, air freight, military, private)...and least not at any scale and by extension, we could not have a 21st century 1st world economy.

BTW, as with all core infrastructure in the US, it is remarkably decrepit. Much of our air traffic control infrastructure is operating with 1960s radar technology... We are lucky it hasn't reared its ugly head in the form of a mishap.

Engineers Give U.S. Infrastructure a 'D', Seek $2.2 Trillion in Stimulus: ASCE 2009 Infrastructure Report Card - Popular Mechanics
ASCE | 2013 Report Card for America's Infrastructure

I have no problem with closing towers and reducing overnight shifts on many airports... of course, it wasn't that long ago that the FAA bolster overnight controllers because of tired controllers, one perhaps contributing to an accident in Lexington and a near accident in LA

Comair Flight 5191 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tired Air Traffic Controller Blamed in Near-Crash - Los Angeles Times

BTW... airlines are taxed (in the form of aviation fuel taxes, landing fees and terminal and hanger rent) to pay for airport facilities and ATC, just as trucking companies pay highway taxes.
 
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There is no reason for the government to be paying anything for private airports. Those are for-profit businesses - and some MEGA profit businesses.
 
joko104 said:
There is no reason for the government to be paying anything for private airports. Those are for-profit businesses - and some MEGA profit businesses.
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Airports and ATC are 2 seperate entitites. However if you privatize ATC like many other countries have done and this thread wouldnt even exist.
 
joko104 said:
There is no reason for the government to be paying anything for private airports. Those are for-profit businesses - and some MEGA profit businesses.
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People need to stop using the term "private airports" because they're doing it wrong. The government doesn't pay anything for private airports.

Quag said:
Airports and ATC are 2 seperate entitites. However if you privatize ATC like many other countries have done and this thread wouldnt even exist.
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The Canadians have a privatized ATC system and it's awful. There are fees for doing anything. edit: Good news, looks like they got rid of some of it and have a mostly weight-based fee system.
 
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Deuce said:
People need to stop using the term "private airports" because they're doing it wrong. The government doesn't pay anything for private airports.



The Canadians have a privatized ATC system and it's awful. There are fees for doing anything. edit: Good news, looks like they got rid of some of it and have a mostly weight-based fee system.
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Canadian ATC is one of the best in the world. Has much newer equipment than US system and the fees arent killing anyone.
 
joko104 said:
There is no reason for the government to be paying anything for private airports. Those are for-profit businesses - and some MEGA profit businesses.
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The thing is that the federal government control ALL the airspace starting at about 1000 above the ground. So what's important is that those folks who happen to own a private airport can coordinate that traffic going out and coming in, with the FAA, so everybody is on the same playbook.

Anyway, it looks like my home airport is going to survive the cut.

Most airports in the US are uncontrolled, so I don't see the big deal. I'm in favor of reduced spending.
 
Henry David said:
The thing is that the federal government control ALL the airspace starting at about 1000 above the ground. So what's important is that those folks who happen to own a private airport can coordinate that traffic going out and coming in, with the FAA, so everybody is on the same playbook.

Anyway, it looks like my home airport is going to survive the cut.

Most airports in the US are uncontrolled, so I don't see the big deal. I'm in favor of reduced spending.
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Many of the closed airports will get along just fine without their tower. I'm actually more concerned with the reduced staffing at the busier airports.
 
MMC said:
Well around us they are Shutting down Gary Airport Tower and some of the Private Fields.....course once again blaming sequester cuts. Although if I was some of these millionaires and billionaires. I think they could build their own towers and hire their own people for Private fields. Which if it affects these types and business. Then they should also be able to turn around and make the Democrats and Obama pay the price.
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We could always close former Senator Murtha's private airport now that hes dead.

Murtha Airport, brought to you by American taxpayers
 
MMC said:
Yeah, I definitely could see them getting rid of some pencil pushers and Middle management, myself. Course yesterday Obama thrw up another 200 Million to Jordan to help take care of Syrian Refugees. Why are we paying for Syrian Refugees in Jordan? I think that 200 million could have helped keep some of the Towers open. Especially the One in Ogden Utah situated around Military Flights.

But that's Okay.....Obama can keep on taking the hit. Each and everytime he throws money overseas. People are hurting here and even they won't go for the lies much longer while watching Team Obama give money to other Countries.
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MMC said:
Who do you think those you mentioned would cut first. Air traffic Controllers or Pencil pushing shirts that sit in offices? What about sales and advertising? Middle management?
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Do you know anything about the FAA, anything at all, which supports this opinion? You seem to have literally just made up this opinion right here in your posts and are now defending it as if its cold hard fact.
 
Wiseone said:
Do you know anything about the FAA, anything at all, which supports this opinion? You seem to have literally just made up this opinion right here in your posts and are now defending it as if its cold hard fact.
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Try reading the whole thread.....before coming along and trying to think for another. What did the question confuse you? Or did you get Upset because someone mention YOUR MAN Obama. :roll:
 
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